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March 29, 2013

When a Holocaust denial law is eventually passed in America, what will US citizens be required to believe?

Filed under: Dachau, Germany, Holocaust — Tags: , , — furtherglory @ 2:14 pm

I anticipate that America will eventually have a law against Holocaust denial and that Holocaust denial will be an exception to our 1st Amendment right of free speech.  Russia is currently contemplating such a law.  You can read more about the proposed law in Russia here.

When a Holocaust denial law is passed in the USA, what will Americans be required to believe, under the threat of 5 years in prison?

Today, I read an interesting article here, entitled “What do Creationists and Holocaust Deniers Have In Common?”

This quote is from the article cited above:

As distasteful and offensive as the Holocaust deniers analogy may seem (it’s such a morally repulsive idea that no sane historian would ever attempt to equivocate the truth of the Holocaust with radical conspiracy theories), we would be naive if we summarily discounted that denial without understanding its origins and its import. For a great many in the radicalized Middle East, Holocaust denial is a centerpiece in education policy, domestic policy, and international affairs. We are nearly seventy years removed from the Holocaust, and I suspect that, within my lifetime, I’ll one day read about the death of the last remaining survivor.

We know the Holocaust is true, because many of us lived through it. To be sure, I am far too young to remember the Holocaust, but when I was eighteen, a group of friends and I trekked through the Dachau Concentration Camp, one of the saddest but most illuminating moments of my young life: Confronting the vestiges of undeniable evil, the inhumanly cramped boarding rooms, the crematoriums, the gas chambers, the cast-iron sign emblazoned with the words “Arbeit Macht Frei.” A place that still smelled like soot and death and dust. This was not a Hollywood set. If I had possessed even a fragment of a thought about the remote possibility of a massive conspiracy, it was forever extinguished that afternoon. Dachau is a vivid, permanent, real place on our planet; Holocaust deniers are idiots.

The author doesn’t say how old he is now, so we don’t know what year it was when he was 18, but it must have been during the period of time when there was a sign in the Dachau shower room, saying that it was not a gas chamber, or never used as a gas chamber.

His trek through Dachau must have been after the barracks had been torn down, so that a Memorial Site could be constructed inside the former concentration camp.  The “inhumanly cramped boarding rooms” must have been the reconstructed barrack buildings. When the Dachau camp was used for 17 years to house the ethnic Germans who had been expelled from Czechoslovakia, tourists were not allowed to disturb these pathetic residents.

What did he think that the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign proved? During the time that 30,000 German “war criminals” were crowded into the Dachau camp, designed for 5,000 prisoners, the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign was not there, and the prisoners did not have to work.  During that time, the Dachau camp was called “War Crimes Enclosure No. 1.”

If he saw the “gas chambers” (plural), that means that he saw the disinfection chambers that were clearly labeled as such.  The disinfection chambers were used to SAVE lives.

David Irving was thrown into prison in Austria because he said that the gas chamber at the main Auschwitz camp was a “reconstruction.”  Now it is admitted that this gas chamber was reconstructed by the Soviets, and it is no longer a crime to say this.

When Holocaust denial becomes a crime in America, will we have to believe the stories told by Irene Zisblatt or face a 5 year prison sentence?

Hopefully, when America passes a Holocaust Denial law, there will be huge book (about the size of the book of rules on Obamacare) that gives details on each and every story that we are required to believe.

When a Holocaust denial law is finally passed in America, the prisons will become so overcrowded that a new punishment will have to be devised.  Maybe Holocaust deniers could be forced to stand on a street corner wearing a “neck violin” like ones that criminals were forced to wear in the old days.

Neck violin that criminals were forced to wear in the old days

Neck violin that criminals were forced to wear in the old days

Criminals were forced to wear a neck violin in the old days

Criminals were forced to wear a neck violin in the old days

Or should Holocaust deniers be thrown into a dungeon, as witches were, after a witch trial.  Holocaust denier trials have been compared to witch trials because the perpetrator is not allowed to defend himself or herself.

The photo below shows a dungeon for witches in Germany.

A dungeon for witches in Germany

A dungeon for witches in Germany

20 Comments

  1. America has bigger problems than dealing with Holocaust deniers. America has to worry about not becoming the next Nazi Germany while at the same time trying to control her domestic minorities who are becoming more like terrorists everyday. If deportation isn’t an option then camps may have to be built to house the more radical elements of our society. Unity is quickly disappearing from the American landscape. Immorality is running rampant and even celebrated in our culture. We never recovered from the 60’s. If it feels good, just do it…no matter who you hurt in the process. We no longer want rules to govern us. We don’t realize the importance of morality especially in the lives of our children. Children of minorities are growing up without a father at record numbers. The marriage vows have little meaning to more than half of married couples. The list goes on. A Biily Grahm type national revival would bring us back from the brink. It would be an amazing miracle that this country sorely needs.

    Comment by Glenn Liming — July 8, 2016 @ 4:58 am

    • Holyhoax Debunker is a better name than “holocaust denier”. lol. The Hoax is crumbling. Make America #110 !

      Comment by Bob Bacon — August 6, 2016 @ 2:02 am

  2. The day when Holocaust denial becomes illegalized in America is the day when America’s freedom dies. Soon, people may be sent into FEMA camps simply for questioning about the holocaust. Americans will sooner or later looses its freedom and will become a Zionist/communist police state and pave the way for the totalitarian New World Order, just like the novel 1984 by George Orwell.

    Comment by Dan — March 15, 2015 @ 6:09 pm

  3. My reply was not posted above when I submitted it a few minutes ago; I am reposting it here in case there was a glitch– I don’t remember a time lag when I posted yesterday. This is in reply to the following:

    I respect your right to your opinion, but don’t mistake opinion for fact. It is true that the motives you mention are possible but the URL you provided was the opinion of a man who was trying to make Hitler out to be some great politician. Aside from the fact that he completely ignores the evils commited by Hitler, he did not mention anything relevant to this discussion and did not provide a valid or credible argument for Holocaust denial. Now, I’m not saying the Allies were perfect – they committed their own war crimes for which they should have been held accountable. Yet it’s the Jews who are telling the story, along with former Nazi staff and officers, medics, soldiers and others who witnessed the atrocities committed during the war and have no reason to tell such lies. Much as I’d love to take the time to cite sources that will prove my case, I have no more time left for this discussion. I hope one day you will see the truth for yourself.

    Comment by Miss Z — April 3, 2013 @ 7:34 pm

    You must not have read my comment carefully. The url I gave, http://www.historicalexactitude.blogspot.com, was not provided because of the article, on the page, but for the links list on the right side. As I said, there are numerous complete, footnoted scholarly books available today that go into FACTS, not opinions, and not “eyewitness” testimony, which is some of the least reliable evidence you can have, largely because of people’s propensity to lie for various reasons. Don’t you think people who were imprisoned in work camps in Germany during the war might have had a slight grudge against the Germans? Add to that positive incentives to lie, such as special treatment, prestige and money.

    David Halow, who was an American court reporter in “war crimes” tribunals after the war and wrote “Innocent at Dachau” in the 90s after he started rethinking the meaning of his experiences, wrote that all the court reporters called these “eyewitnesses” “professional witnesses” because it was so obvious what was going on!

    Here is the url for a video I just found in which Mr. Halow is speaking of his experiences as a court reporter at the Dachau trials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZ5HpR34io . To save you time, you can go to the 5:45 mark, where he started talking about the “professional witnesses.” He goes on speaking about them and the trials at this url:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XHrNOESW2s . In the second one he mentions the fact that at the Nuremberg tribunals as well as the other trials they did not use ordinary rules of evidence, but crafted special rules ahead of time that would ensure convictions.

    The Allies also used torture to obtain confessions: for example, Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, whose confessions, in the words of Robert Faurisson, “supply the keystone to the theory which maintains that systematic extermination of the Jews, especially by means of homicidal gas chambers, was a historical reality,” was horribly tortured in order to force him to sign confessions in English– a language he did not understand. Here’s the url for Faurisson’s analysis: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html . Sefton Delmet, an Englishman who worked in “Black Propaganda” for the allies during and after the war, boasted later that he could send any lie he wanted to the Nuremberg Tribunal, accusing the Germans of war crimes, where it would be stamped as official evidence and regarded as fact, both in the trials and in the work of historians later.

    These facts are very important, because it was these trials that established the “fact” of the state-ordered extermination of the European Jews. If the trials were fatally flawed: a “high-grade lynching” and “sanctimonious fraud”, as US Supreme Court Chief Justice Harlan Fiske Stone called them, then you need to look elsewhere to find out the truth. Here are a few urls for free books:

    Barbara Kulaszka on the trial of Ernst Zundel, in which there is amazing sworn testimony by a huge cast of characters:
    http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/falsenews.toc.html or for a pdf: http://tinyurl.com/c5yutax .

    Jurgen Graf, Hoax or Holocaust, the Arguments: http://archive.org/details/HoaxOrHolocaust.TheArguments or http://tinyurl.com/cghtuzt .

    Graf also wrote Giant with Feet of Clay : Raul Hilberg and his Standard Work on the Holocaust–a deconstuction of the writing of Raoul Hilberg, supposed great authority on the Holocaust, who never bothered to visit an alleged “extermination camp” in all his reasearches: http://tinyurl.com/d4tch75 .
    (In the book by Barbara Kulaszka, above, you will find an illuminating interrogation of Hilberg from Ernst Zundel’s trial.)

    Jurgen Graf is living in Russia at this time, I believe—he had to flee Switzerland after being condemned in court, or be locked up for his writings.

    Germar Rudolf, Lectures on the Holocaust – Controversial Issues Cross Examined
    http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/loth/ or http://tinyurl.com/btjr58k

    Aslo by Germar Rudolf, Dissecting the Holocaust: The Growing Critique of “Truth” and “Memory”: http://archive.org/details/DissectingTheHolocaus. Or http://tinyurl.com/c3my827 .

    Germar Rudolf was kidnapped from Chicago in 2005, where he was living peacefully with his wife and baby, and shipped to Germany to be tried and imprisoned for a few years for his writings.

    Contrast the “rewards” that Revisionist historians get for their work—prison, destitution, displacement, shunning–compared to the money, prestige and power accrued by mouthpieces for the Holocaust industry. What possible motive could the former have to keep speaking out except the desire for the truth to prevail at last and for people and entire countries who were framed to be exculpated?

    Here is the web page of Carlo Mattogno: http://vho.org/Authors/Carlo_Mattogno.html . He writes extremely technical articles; has not been arrested, to my knowledge– they tend to be less punitive of this type of thought crime in Italy, I think.

    What these writers have in common is that they are extremely rigorous and deal exclusively with facts. And once you have a grasp of the facts you realize that no matter how many people tell stories at odds with the facts, facts always trump claims in a court of law. If a witness claims a certain man raped her and the DNA belongs to someone else, the man will be freed. So it must be. And if certain supposedly “historical” events could not, scientifically, have happened, they did not happen. That’s the way things work in our material world.

    Hope I have perhaps aroused the interest of some readers to pursue the truth of this subject for themselves and “let the chips fall where they may.”

    Comment by plasterangel — April 4, 2013 @ 9:41 am

    • Your comment did not go up immediately because it was classified as spam. When a comment has numerous links, it is considered spam. I took the comment out of the spam folder and put it up.

      Comment by furtherglory — April 4, 2013 @ 10:12 am

      • Thank you! 🙂
        I just saw this, almost a year later.

        Comment by plasterangel — March 18, 2014 @ 6:51 am

  4. The real Holocaust was the war against European Germany for the sake of jews that Americans and English believe are “chosen people” ordained by “g-d” to rule over Europeans.

    Comment by Bob — April 2, 2013 @ 9:28 am

  5. I need clarification – you didn’t come right out and say that the Holocaust never took place. Do you honestly believe that it’s a lie? If yes, what reason could anyone possibly ever have for telling such a story if it weren’t true? All you have to do is look into the eyes of a Holocaust survivor as they tell you what happened to them, study their body language and you’ll see they’re telling the truth. Are you a qualified psychologist who can tell me otherwise? No? Here’s some advice for you: If you want to question the integrity of a well-established part of history than make sure you state the reason why you doubt it and ensure you have evidence that contradicts it. Without evidence, your theory is without merit or logic.

    Comment by Miss Z — April 2, 2013 @ 12:45 am

    • I have answered your comment in a new blog post which I just put up this morning. Here is your clarification: I don’t believe every single detail told by every single Holocaust survivor. For example, Irene Zisblatt. She has an entry in Wikipedia but Wikipedia will not print the stories that she tells. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Zisblatt)

      Comment by furtherglory — April 2, 2013 @ 7:33 am

    • vidence against the “Holocaust” of Jews during WWII having taken place is so incredibly extensive that the best thing, if you are interested, is to simply start researching the subject yourself. here’s a url where you can start, if you like: http://historicalexactitude.blogspot.com. There’s a links list on the right with a lot of Revisionist history sites, where you can even find whole footnoted scholarly books to download.

      As for a motive, there are so many — for example: to distract from the horrific war crimes committed by the Allies, such a their massive, deliberate civilian bombing campaign (have you seen pictures of Germany after the war?). Or the deliberate murder by starvation and exposure of over a million German prisoners of war. Etc. etc. Then there is the money — hundreds of billions of dollars collected so far, at least. Then there is Israel, for which the alleged murder of millions of Jews was an excuse. And there is the power gained by portraying themselves as the innocent victims of everyone else’s treachery or indifference.

      The only way for you to make an informed decision about this subject is to
      read the evidence on the other side.

      Comment by plasterangel — April 2, 2013 @ 11:39 pm

      • I respect your right to your opinion, but don’t mistake opinion for fact. It is true that the motives you mention are possible but the URL you provided was the opinion of a man who was trying to make Hitler out to be some great politician. Aside from the fact that he completely ignores the evils commited by Hitler, he did not mention anything relevant to this discussion and did not provide a valid or credible argument for Holocaust denial. Now, I’m not saying the Allies were perfect – they committed their own war crimes for which they should have been held accountable. Yet it’s the Jews who are telling the story, along with former Nazi staff and officers, medics, soldiers and others who witnessed the atrocities committed during the war and have no reason to tell such lies. Much as I’d love to take the time to cite sources that will prove my case, I have no more time left for this discussion. I hope one day you will see the truth for yourself.

        Comment by Miss Z — April 3, 2013 @ 7:34 pm

        • You must not have read my comment carefully. The url I gave, http://www.historicalexactitude.blogspot.com , was not for the article, on that page, but for the links list on the right side. As I said, there are numerous complete, footnoted scholarly books available today that go into FACTS, not opinions, and not “eyewitness” testimony, which is some of the least reliable evidence you can have, largely because of people’s propensity to lie for various reasons. Don’t you think people who were imprisoned in work camps in Germany during the war might have had a slight grudge against the Germans? Add to that positive incentives to lie, such as special treatment, prestige and money.

          David Halow, who was an American court reporter in “war crimes” tribunals after the war and wrote “Innocent at Dachau” in the 90s after he started rethinking the meaning of his experiences, wrote that all the court reporters called these “eyewitnesses” “professional witnesses” because it was so obvious what was going on!

          Here is the url for a video I just found in which Mr. Halow is speaking of his experiences as a court reporter at the Dachau trials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZ5HpR34io . To save you time, you can go to the 5:45 mark, where he started talking about the “professional witnesses.” He goes on speaking about them and the trials at this url:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XHrNOESW2s . In the second one he mentions the fact that at the Nuremberg tribunals as well as the other trials they did not use ordinary rules of evidence, but crafted special rules ahead of time that would ensure convictions.

          The Allies also used torture to obtain confessions: for example, Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, whose confessions, in the words of Robert Faurisson, “supply the keystone to the theory which maintains that systematic extermination of the Jews, especially by means of homicidal gas chambers, was a historical reality,” was horribly tortured in order to force him to sign confessions in English– a language he did not understand. Here’s the url for Faurisson’s analysis: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html . Sefton Delmet, an Englishman who worked in “Black Propaganda” for the allies during and after the war, boasted later that he could send any lie he wanted to the Nuremberg Tribunal, accusing the Germans of war crimes, where it would be stamped as official evidence and regarded as fact, both in the trials and in the work of historians later.

          These facts are very important, because it was these trials that established the “fact” of the state-ordered extermination of the European Jews. If the trials were fatally flawed: a “high-grade lynching” and “sanctimonious fraud”, as US Supreme Court Chief Justice Harlan Fiske Stone called them, then you need to look elsewhere to find out the truth. Here are a few urls for free books:

          Barbara Kulaszka on the trial of Ernst Zundel, in which there is amazing sworn testimony by a huge cast of characters:
          http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/falsenews.toc.html or for a pdf: http://tinyurl.com/c5yutax .

          Jurgen Graf, Hoax or Holocaust, the Arguments: http://archive.org/details/HoaxOrHolocaust.TheArguments or http://tinyurl.com/cghtuzt .

          Graf also wrote Giant with Feet of Clay : Raul Hilberg and his Standard Work on the Holocaust–a deconstuction of the writing of Raoul Hilberg, supposed great authority on the Holocaust, who never bothered to visit an alleged “extermination camp” in all his reasearches: http://tinyurl.com/d4tch75 .
          (In the book by Barbara Kulaszka, above, you will find an illuminating interrogation of Hilberg from Ernst Zundel’s trial.)

          Jurgen Graf is living in Russia at this time, I believe—he had to flee Switzerland after being condemned in court, or be locked up for his writings.

          Germar Rudolf, Lectures on the Holocaust – Controversial Issues Cross Examined
          http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/loth/ or http://tinyurl.com/btjr58k

          Aslo by Germar Rudolf, Dissecting the Holocaust: The Growing Critique of “Truth” and “Memory”: http://archive.org/details/DissectingTheHolocaus. Or http://tinyurl.com/c3my827 .

          Germar Rudolf was kidnapped from Chicago in 2005, where he was living peacefully with his wife and baby, and shipped to Germany to be tried and imprisoned for a few years for his writings.

          Contrast the “rewards” that Revisionist historians get for their work—prison, destitution, displacement, shunning–compared to the money, prestige and power accrued by mouthpieces for the Holocaust industry. What possible motive could the former have to keep speaking out except the desire for the truth to prevail at last and for people and entire countries who were framed to be exculpated?

          Here is the web page of Carlo Mattogno: http://vho.org/Authors/Carlo_Mattogno.html . He writes extremely technical articles; has not been arrested, to my knowledge– they tend to be less punitive of this type of thought crime in Italy, I think.

          What these writers have in common is that they are extremely rigorous and deal exclusively with facts. And once you have a grasp of the facts you realize that no matter how many people tell stories at odds with the facts, facts always trump claims in a court of law. If a witness claims a certain man raped her and the DNA belongs to someone else, the man will be freed. So it must be. And if certain supposedly “historical” events could not, scientifically, have happened, they did not happen. That’s the way things work in our material world.

          Hope I have perhaps aroused the interest of some readers to pursue the truth of this subject for themselves and “let the chips fall where they may.”

          Comment by plasterangel — April 4, 2013 @ 9:28 am

  6. I am the author of the post you reference. First, I want to make this abundantly clear: I do not believe and have never asserted that the United States should criminalize Holocaust deniers. Our First Amendment protects freedom of speech, even freedom of hate speech or stupid speech. That was not my point, and it’s disingenuous of you to make that assertion or implication.

    It seems to me that you’re more interested in making yourself appear as a victim than actually pursuing the truth. Secondly, you actually don’t dispute anything I reported about visiting Dachau. Go back and read what I wrote. Everything I reported is accurate. Tens of thousands of human beings died in Dachau, including thousands of Jews.

    The camp did, in fact, contain a crematorium and at least four different gas chambers, and there’s ample evidence that while some of those gas chambers were used for decontamination, at least one of them was designed to poison people to death (and there’s evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, used). Also, what does it matter if the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign was taken down after the camp was liberated and then put back up when it was “reconstructed”? What a silly, sloppy, and intellectually lazy argument.

    Finally, what is most revealing and ironic about your post is how you imagine yourself as the victim of a “witch trial,” as if those who oppose your beliefs want to torture you or send you to a dungeon. You fetishize Holocaust denial so much that you, ironically, envision yourself as being persecuted, tortured, and dehumanized the same way as those who were actual victims of the Holocaust. To you and your fellow deniers, it may come across as righteous outrage, but to most of the world, it looks like paranoid self-aggrandizing, bordering on delusional obsession. And sure, your beliefs likely insult millions of people, including millions of Jewish folks all over the world who were personally affected by the Holocaust. But why would anyone want to put you in a dungeon? You’ve apparently already built one for yourself.

    Comment by Lamar White, Jr — March 31, 2013 @ 1:19 am

    • Very informative, you must be from the USA. The only foreign culture, history and suffering you have ever heard about, is that of the eternal victims, the Jews. And if freedom of expression on the Holocaust(TM) in the USA is criminalized, there will be no further need to ask who pulls the strings in your country, as if we don’t already know anyway

      Comment by DB — March 31, 2013 @ 6:53 am

    • You wrote: “The camp did, in fact, contain a crematorium and at least four different gas chambers, and there’s ample evidence that while some of those gas chambers were used for decontamination, at least one of them was designed to poison people to death (and there’s evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, used).”

      I am not aware of the “evidence to suggest” that a gas chamber was used to “poison people to death” at Dachau. If it’s not too much trouble, could you cite a reference to this “evidence”?

      I have deduced that you visited Dachau in 2001. I was at Dachau in 2001 and there was a sign in the gas chamber, which said that the gas chamber was never used. When I was at Dachau in 2003, the sign had been removed. You can see a photo of the sign this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/it-is-time-to-bring-back-the-sign-in-the-dachau-gas-chamber/

      You wrote: “… you actually don’t dispute anything I reported about visiting Dachau. Go back and read what I wrote. Everything I reported is accurate. Tens of thousands of human beings died in Dachau, including thousands of Jews.”

      You are correct that tens of thousands died at Dachau. There were 31,951 deaths at the main Dachau camp during the 12 years that the camp was in existence, according to a report made by the International Tracing Service at Arolson, Germany in 1977. The official report of the US Seventh Army, published in 1945, mentioned that 14,700 deaths had occurred at Dachau in the first quarter of 1945. In other words, around half of the deaths at Dachau occurred in the first three months of 1945. In the month of May 1945, an additional 2,226 Dachau prisoners died after the camp was liberated, in spite of the excellent care given to them by American military doctors. There were 196 more deaths in June before the typhus epidemic was finally stopped.

      Why were prisoners dying AFTER the camp was liberated? It was because there was a TYPHUS epidemic in the camp.

      I wrote about the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/arbeit-macht-frei-what-does-it-stand-for/

      You wrote: “Also, what does it matter if the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign was taken down after the camp was liberated and then put back up when it was “reconstructed”?”

      It matters because on every tour to Dachau, the tour guide stops at the gate into the camp and tells the visitors that the sign on the gate was put there to taunt the prisoners. That was not the purpose of the sign. The tour guides should begin the tour by telling visitors that the Arbeit sign was only put on Class I camps and the sign means that Dachau was a Class I camp.

      Comment by furtherglory — March 31, 2013 @ 7:55 am

    • Lamar wrote: “Tens of thousands of human beings died in Dachau, including thousands of Jews.”

      Yeah. The Holocaust by (undeliberate) starvation and diseases due to the Allied bombings. How terrible…

      Lamar wrote: “there’s ample evidence that while some of those gas chambers were used for decontamination, at least one of them was designed to poison people to death (and there’s evidence to suggest that it was, in fact, used).”

      If so, why did the Guardian of the Holocaust myth in the Germany of the 1960’s, Martin Broszat of the Institute for Contemporary History, said:

      “Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed. The gas chamber in Dachau was never entirely finished or put “into operation.” Hundreds of thousands of prisoners who perished in Dachau and other concentration camps in the Old Reich were victims, above all, of the catastrophic hygienic and provisioning conditions” – Dr Martin Broszat, Institute for Contemporary History (Institut für Zeitgeschichte), newspaper “Die Zeit”, German edition on August 19, 1960, and in the US edition on August 26, 1960.

      What evidence proving there were homicidal gassings at Dachau was found between 1960 and now?

      Comment by hermie — March 31, 2013 @ 10:35 am

      • “Yeah. The Holocaust by (undeliberate) starvation and diseases due to the Allied bombings. How terrible…”

        No, I think it was deliberate. It is just that the wrong “perps” are usually named (par for the course in this field of history).

        The fact is that the Allies had to have known what effect their bombing of the rail lines to the camps was having. If they didn’t, they were informed soon enough by the Germans, who were dismayed at the deaths and asked for help from the Americans to lessen the death toll. They chose to pursue a policy that they knew would provide (and was providing) piles of bodies that could be used as “photo-ops” after they got control of the camps. Their bombing of the rails prevented not only food from getting through, but also typhus-prevention supplies and, for example, they bombed the water pump at Bergen Belsen, preventing the prisoners from having adequate clean water. It was mass murder of civilians by the Allies– but then that was nothing new, as they had been doing it in the cities in Germany for most of the war. The concentration camps, however, had been previously, ironically, places of safety because they were not bombed.

        Comment by plasterangel — April 2, 2013 @ 11:58 pm

  7. I remember I read the same comparison (between Creationists and Holocaust ‘deniers’) in a book written by Richard Dawkins. As a biologist myself, I found Dawkins’ anti-creationist arguments compelling but I also thought he was making a fool of himself when he chose to speak about something he patently didn’t know at all (i.e. Holocaust ‘denial’) to prove his point on Creationism.

    Article “What do Creationists and Holocaust Deniers Have In Common?”: “We know the Holocaust is true, because many of us lived through it. To be sure, I am far too young to remember the Holocaust, but when I was eighteen, a group of friends and I trekked through the Dachau Concentration Camp […] : Confronting the vestiges of undeniable evil, the inhumanly cramped boarding rooms, the crematoriums, the gas chambers, the cast-iron sign emblazoned with the words “Arbeit Macht Frei.” A place that still smelled like soot and death and dust. This was not a Hollywood set. If I had possessed even a fragment of a thought about the remote possibility of a massive conspiracy, it was forever extinguished that afternoon. Dachau is a vivid, permanent, real place on our planet; Holocaust deniers are idiots.”

    As furtherglory wrote, Dachau had no real homicidal gas chamber (so the Dachau ‘gas chamber’ was “a Hollywwod set” made by the guys of the U.S. Psychological Warfare Division, in spite of what the author of that article says) and Dachau was not even a concentration camp for jews (some jews were imprisoned there after the Kristallnacht but were released after a little while, others were evacuated there at the very end of WW2). Thus a camp for political opponents and different kinds of criminals with no gas chamber (or with “a gas chamber […] never used as a gas chamber” in Holocaustians’ words) is a proof of the Jewish Holocaust and demonstrates “Holocaust deniers are idiots” anyway. Faith doesn’t care about facts. That’s why Holocaustianity is so successful today and needs to have the heretics destroyed by any mean…

    Comment by hermie — March 29, 2013 @ 4:49 pm

    • I believe that some Germans—covered in blood and bruises, and in immense fear about the fate of the wives and children—were present when Darwin and Wallace’s paper was presented to Linnean Society in July 1858. Although the Germans were more that a little contradictory on the workings of Evolution, their assurances of it’s authenticity were enough to convince the fellows of the Linnean Society. Who, if truth be told, had initially been unconvinced and even dismissive of the evidence they had originally been offered: several statements translated from Yiddish, made by supposed eyewitnesses to an ape evolving into a man.

      Comment by The Black Rabbit of Inlé — March 29, 2013 @ 7:46 pm

  8. Critics from Poughkeepsie to Paris have been writing about “art problem child” Charles Krafft’s outing as Holocaust denier. http://o.seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thearts/2020628362_charleskrafftxml.html The agitprop behind the outrage is predictable given Holocaust deniers are thought criminals even Amnesty International has turned it back on. Unless others start stepping forward to declare their skepticism about the received history of the only legislated event in the history of human warfare Americans can expect an amendment to the First Amendment criminalizing Holocaust heresy.

    Comment by who+dares+wings — March 29, 2013 @ 2:55 pm


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