Scrapbookpages Blog

February 16, 2016

“The Mühldorf Train of Death” is in the news

Filed under: Buchenwald, Dachau, Germany, Holocaust, World War II — Tags: , , — furtherglory @ 7:59 am

Dead bodies on the Train of Death

The photo above shows dead bodies on a death train

“The Mühldorf Train of Death” is mentioned in a recent news article which you can read in full at http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/story/news/education/usm/2016/02/15/holocaust-survivor-speak-documentary-screening/80422828/

Young German boys were forced to look at the dead bodies on the train

Young German boys were forced to look at the dead bodies on the train of death

I am not positive about this, but I believe that the train, that is mentioned in the news article, was the famous train that was found just outside the Dachau concentration camp by the American soldiers who liberated the Dachau camp on April 29, 1945.

I previously wrote about Dachau, and “The Mühldorf Train of Death”  on my website at http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/MaxMannheimer.html

Dead bodies on the "train of Death'

“The train of Death” at Dachau

The "lone survivor" of the Death Train

The “lone survivor” of the Death Train

The following events preceded the tragedy of the infamous Death Train:

On April 4, 1945, the American Third army was advancing eastward through Germany and unexpectedly came upon the nearly deserted Ohrdruf forced labor camp near the town of Gotha.

Ohrdruf, which was a sub-camp of Buchenwald, was the first Nazi camp that any American soldiers had ever seen in Germany. Almost all the prisoners had been evacuated from Ohrdruf and had been taken to the Buchenwald main camp.

Like all the major concentration camps, Buchenwald had many sub-camps including one in a small town called Langensalza, where a former textile factory had been converted into a munitions plant which produced parts for Heinkel fighter planes used by the German Air Force.

On April 1st, which was Easter Sunday, 1,500 prisoners from Langensalza had been force-marched 60 kilometers to the Buchenwald main camp.

Buchenwald was already overcrowded with prisoners who had been evacuated from the camps in Poland, and there was no room for the new prisoners. In a few days, these prisoners from the sub-camps would be put on another train, the train that was to become infamous as the Death Train which so enraged the American liberators of Dachau.

According to the rules of the Geneva Convention, prisoners of war were supposed to be evacuated from the war zone, but this was not what had motivated the Nazis. They were concerned that the prisoners, if released from the camps by the Allies, would roam the countryside, attacking German soldiers and looting civilian homes, not to mention the fear of spreading the typhus epidemic that was causing the deaths of thousands of prisoners every day in the overcrowded camps.

The Nazis were especially fearful that Jewish inmates in the camps would exact revenge on the German people if they were released.

When the 6th Armored Division of the US Third Army arrived at the Buchenwald concentration camp on April 11th, 1945, the SS guards had already fled for their lives and the Communist prisoners were in charge of the camp. The prisoners were still locked inside the prison enclosure, but the gate house clock had been stopped at 3:15 p.m., the time that the Communists took over, and the camp was flying the white flag of surrender.

The American liberators promptly released some of the Communist prisoners and allowed them to hunt down and kill 80 of the guards who were still hiding in the surrounding forest. Some were brought back to the camp where American soldiers participated with the inmates in beating these captured German SS soldiers to death.

While the US Seventh Army was fighting its way across southern Germany, capturing one town after another with little resistance, the prisoners who had been evacuated to Buchenwald from the abandoned Ohrdruf forced labor camp were starting on their ill-fated journey which would end on a railroad track just outside the Dachau concentration camp. On April 7th, they were marched 5 kilometers to the town of Weimar. At 9 p.m. on April 8th, they were put on a southbound train.

The prisoners were guarded by 20 SS soldiers under the command of Hans Merbach. For their journey, which was expected to be relatively short, they were given “a handful of boiled potatoes, 500 grams of bread, 50 grams of sausage and 25 grams of margarine” according to Merbach, who was quoted by Hans-Günther Richardi in his book, “Dachau, A Guide to its Contemporary History.” According to Richardi, the train which left Weimar on April 8th was filled with 4,500 prisoners who were French, Italian, Austrian, Polish, Russian and Jewish.

It was unseasonably cold in the Spring of 1945, and there was snow on the bodies when the soldiers in the 40th Combat Engineer Regiment arrived on April 30, 1945.

According to Gleb Rahr, one of the few prisoners on the train who made it to Dachau alive, his journey had started on April 5th, when he was one of 5,000 prisoners who were force-marched to Weimar from Buchenwald. He had reached Buchenwald from the sub-camp of Langensalza only a couple of days before.

As quoted by Sam Dann in “Dachau 29 April 1945,” Rahr said that there were “60 open box cars” on the train and that “About eighty prisoners were forced into each car; thirty would have strained its capacity. Two SS soldiers were attached to each car.”

According to Rahr, after the open box cars were filled beyond their capacity, “Two or three (more) were jammed into each boxcar.” These additional prisoners were from one of the most infamous forced labor camps, the V-2 rocket plants at Dora, Rahr says. As described by Rahr, all the prisoners from Dora “were dying of starvation, and infected with typhus. Within a few days, every one of them had died. But the lice they had brought with them multiplied and settled on the rest of us.”

Rahr’s eye-witness account differs from the accounts of others: At first Rahr said that there were “60 open box cars,” but then he contradicted himself in the same interview, quoted in “Dachau 29 April 1945,” and said that there were “three trains of 30 cars each” which were bound for Leipzig. Another prisoner who was fortunate enough to withstand the trip on the Death Train and to make it inside the camp was Joseph Knoll.

Among the survivors on the Death Train was Martin Rosenfeld. He claimed that 350 prisoners were shot to death as they marched from the Buchenwald camp to the train station at Weimar, and that there were only 1,100 survivors out of 5,000 who boarded the train. According to his account, the train had arrived at Dachau on April 26, 1945, although Gleb Rahr and Joseph Knoll both told author Sam Dann that the date was April 27, 1945.

In his testimony before an American Military Tribunal in 1947, Hans Merbach said the train had arrived on April 26, 1945. The confusion about the date may have been caused by the fact that there were actually two trains that arrived at Dachau. One of them was parked inside the SS camp complex and it was empty.

According to Dachau author Hans-Günther Richardi, five hours after the train had departed from Weimar, Hans Merbach, the transport leader, was informed that the Flossenbürg concentration camp had already been liberated by the Americans.

The prisoners at Flossenbürg had been evacuated and were being death marched to Dachau. Many of these prisoners died on the way and were buried at the Waldfriedhof cemetery in the city of Dachau. The train had to be rerouted to Dachau, but it took almost three weeks to get there because of numerous delays caused by American planes bombing the railroad tracks.

The train had to take several very long detours through Leipzig, Dresden and finally through the town of Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. In the village of Nammering in Upper Bavaria, the train was delayed for four days while the track was repaired, and the mayor of the town brought bread and potatoes for the prisoners, according to Harold Marcuse who wrote about the train in his book “Legacies of Dachau.”

Continuing on via Pocking, the train was attacked by American planes because they thought it was a military transport, according to Richardi. Many of the prisoners were riding in open freight cars with no protection from the hail of bullets.

The final leg of the journey was another detour to the south of Dachau, through Mühldorf and then Munich, arriving in Dachau early on the afternoon of April 26th, three days before the liberation of the camp.

The prisoners, some of whom were not in very good shape to begin with, had been on the train for 19 days. Out of the 4,500 or 5,000 who had been put on the train in Weimar, only 1,300 were able to walk the short distance from the railroad spur line into the Dachau prison compound, according to survivors Rahr and Knoll, as told to Sam Dann, who wrote “Dachau 29 April 1945.”

The surviving prisoners on the train were barely able to drag themselves through the gates into Dachau. According to Rahr, the survivors were taken to the Quarantine Barracks and given “hot oat soup,” which he said was “the first food of any kind” that was given to them since the start of the trip. In his account of the trip, Rahr says that the only food the prisoners got for the whole trip was one loaf of bread on the first day. He mentioned the four-day stop in Nammering, but did not say that the prisoners were given any food, as claimed by the mayor of the town. Rahr told about the bodies from the train that were burned at Nammering. The burning was unsuccessful and the prisoners had to bury the bodies, according to Rahr.

By the time that the 45th Thunderbird Infantry Division arrived in the town of Dachau, the locomotive had been removed from the abandoned train and 39 cars, half of them with dead prisoners, had been left standing on a siding on Friedenstrasse, just outside the railroad gate into the SS Garrison. Inside the SS camp, another freight train stood on the tracks, but this one was empty.

Most of the Waffen-SS soldiers had left the Dachau Garrison on or before the 28th, leaving the food warehouses unlocked. When the news of the abandonment of the SS camp spread, the townspeople converged on the warehouses, looking for food to steal, just as the American liberators arrived.

The American soldiers were appalled to see residents of Dachau bicycling past the railroad cars filled with corpses, on their way to loot the warehouses, with no concern for the dead prisoners. After the camp was liberated, the Americans distributed the food from the SS warehouses to the prisoners, leaving the residents to fend for themselves.

Some of the dead had been buried along the way by the prisoners who had been forced to dig the graves, but towards the end of the journey, the bodies were just laid out along the tracks.

The bodies were left on the train for two weeks until the Army could do a full investigation. Tripods were set up near the train, and photographs were taken by US Army photographers. Soldiers who had “liberated” cameras from the Germans took numerous photographs and developed the film when they got home.

Young boys, who were members of the Hitler Youth, were brought to the train and forced to look at the decaying bodies. Boys as young as 12 were fighting in the war towards the end, so it is doubtful that these boys had any sympathy for the prisoners who had died on the train.

Nor did the residents of Dachau exhibit any sympathy for the dead prisoners on the train on the day of the liberation. A New York Times correspondent wrote about civilians looting the SS warehouses that were within sight of the train, while they avoided looking at the train and did not have the common decency to cover the naked bodies.

When the Death Train finally made it to Dachau, the sick and dying prisoners were left on the train along with the corpses of those who had died from exposure or starvation or had been killed when American planes strafed the train. One prisoner who was still alive on the day that the American liberators arrived was rescued.

According to Harold Marcuse in his book “Legacies of Dachau,” the wives of the SS officers who lived in the Dachau SS Garrison were forced to clean the box cars after the badly decomposed bodies were removed.

To get back to the news story, that prompted my blog post today, the following quote is from the news article:

Begin quote

Leslie Schwartz’ story of survival and freedom, captured in [the documentary entitled] “The Mühldorf Train of Death” will be shown at 6:30 p.m. in the University of Southern Mississippi International Center, room 101. German television produced the documentary on Schwartz, which focuses on his interaction with a group of high school students trying to learn about and honor survivors of the Holocaust. Admission is free.

Schwartz was imprisoned at age 14 near the end of the war and managed to elude death, but lost his entire family in the gas chambers at the infamous Auschwitz death camps. He will participate in a question and answer session at the screening. Earlier in the day, he will attend a pre-screening reception at Hattiesburg’s African-American History Museum and also share his story with students in a USM history class.

End quote

I have the feeling that Schwartz will not tell the story of the train accurately.  How will he explain that he survived Auschwitz while his whole family was gassed? Children under the age of 15 were automatically gassed, according to the official Holocaust story, but Leslie was spared so that he could tell lies to future generations.

61 Comments »

  1. Isn’t it interesting that all the train rides, rides getting out of Dodge rides….were meant for killing. The Germans couldn’t get anything right….
    They house them, feed them, delouse their clothes barracks, etc…and it is because they want them dead. Yet they go with them every chance they get.
    The Jews weren’t that stupid though because they definitely knew the Soviets weren’t going to be the best ones to be left with.
    Then we have the horror march itself that have the most bizarre stories but hey thats Hollywood you have to keep the interest of the gullible goyim.
    What fun would it be if they we walked a few miles and got to where they were going safe and sound, of course with a little bumps on the way with the allies were’t straffing the roads. The prisoners had more to fear from the allies then the Germans, as it has been noted that some of the camps with prisoners in them were bombed. Could of been accidental but tell that to the prisoners.

    No matter what the motives of the Germans were, for most HoloHuxsters, it was to “exterminate” the poor little Jews. Oh, that ship the Germans were putting you on to go to the USA was really meant to sink. LOL
    People already have the contrived story of Death,with whatever venue so what do you think the responses would be from all the survivors. The lies of Odesseus, is what book they should be reading.

    Great article by the way FG

    Jim Rizoli
    CCFIILE.COM
    RIZOLITV.COM

    ,

    Comment by jrizoli — February 16, 2016 @ 9:50 am

    • WHAT ABOUT THE SINKING OF KZ-SHIPS?
      The deaths on May 3, 1945, of some 7,000 concentration camp prisoners — victims of a criminal British attack — remains a little-known chapter of World War II history. This is all the more remarkable when one compares the scale of the disaster with other, much better known maritime catastrophes. For example, the well-known sinking of the great British liner Titanic on April 15, 1912, took “only” 1,523 lives.

      Some 5,000 prisoners were hastily evacuated from the Neuengamme concentration camp (a few miles southeast of Hamburg) were brought on board the Cap Arcona between April 18 and 26, along with some 400 SS guards, a naval gunnery detail of 500, and a crew of 76. Similarly the Thielbek took on some 2,800 Neuengamme prisoners. Under the terrible conditions that prevailed in what remained of unoccupied Germany during those final weeks, conditions for the prisoners on board the two vessels were dreadful. Many of the tightly packed inmates were ill, and both food and water were in very short supply.

      On the afternoon of May 3, 1945, British “Typhoon” fighter-bombers, striking in several attack waves, bombarded and fired on the Cap Arcona and then the Thielbek. The two ships, which had no military function or mission, were flying many large white flags. “The hoisting of white flags proved useless,” notes the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich. The attacks were thus violations of international law, for which — if Britain and not Germany had been the vanquished power — British pilots and their commanders could have been punished and even executed as “war criminals.”

      The Thielbek, struck by rockets, bombs and machine gun fire, sank in just 15-20 minutes. British planes then fired on terror-stricken survivors who were struggling in rescue boats or thrashing in the cold sea. Nearly everyone on board the Thielbek perished quickly, including nearly all the SS guards, ship’s officers and crew members. Only about 50 of the prisoners survived.

      The burning Cap Arcona took longer to go under. Many inmates burned to death. Most of those who were able to leap overboard drowned in the cold sea, and only some 350-500 could be rescued. During the next several days hundreds of corpses washed up on nearby shores, and were buried in mass graves. Having sunk in shallow water, the wreck of the capsized Cap Arcona remained partially above water as a grim reminder of the catastrophe.

      Actually, among the greatest naval disasters in history are the Baltic Sea sinkings of three other German vessels by Soviet submarines in the first half of 1945: the Wilhelm Gustloff, on January 30, 1945, with the loss of at least 5,400 lives, mostly women and children; the General Steuben on February 10, 1945, with the loss of 3,500, mostly refugees and wounded soldiers; and, above all, the Goya on April 16, 1945, taking the lives of some 7,000 refugees and wounded soldiers.

      Comment by Herbert Stolpmann — February 16, 2016 @ 5:24 pm

      • Herb. What’s the skinny on this? Never heard of it. They got any books out on it? Sounds like the Limeys pulled that shit on purpose.

        Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 5:59 pm

        • I read about them in KL:
          A History of the German Concentration Camps.
          What happened was a tragedy.
          The responsibility for this tragedy falls upon the SS, who continued to “evacuate” concentration camp prisoners long past the point where there was any sane reason to do so.
          Jeff

          Comment by Jeff K. — February 16, 2016 @ 7:17 pm

          • Jeff
            The destination of those KZ-ships was most likely Sweden.
            In the last few weeks of the war in Europe, the Swedish diplomat Count Folke Bernadotte, vice-president of the Red Cross, was organising the removal of Danish and Norwegian prisoners from German concentration camps to neutral Sweden — a scheme known as the White Buses. In practice the scheme also included other nationalities.

            On April 26, 1945, the Cap Arcona was loaded with prisoners from the Neuengamme and was brought into the Bay of Lübeck along with two smaller ships, Athen and Thielbek. During these days, around 140 French-speaking, West European prisoners were transferred from the Thielbek to the Magdalena for transportation to hospitals in Sweden. This rescue operation was actioned by utilising information from British Intelligence, indicating their knowledge of the deportees on board of the vessels.

            Comment by Herbert Stolpmann — February 17, 2016 @ 12:30 am

            • Hey guys this is kinda starting to sound like the “Hell Ships” the Niponese stuffed our boys on. We’d bomb the shit out of em or a sub would slam a couple fish into their side. So the Limeys bomb the ships,find out Jews were the cargo and they say,”my bad”. Claim they didn’t know Hebs were on there. Winston claims he didn’t know shit about the camps. Years later we find out he knew more than what he said he did. People get pissed because we didn’t do anything. The world was going to hell in a handcart. What were we supposed to do. Is it possible somebody knew about these ships? Maybe the fighter jocks got the message a little too late? If that’s the case I’m not gonna come down on someone who’s given limited information. If that’s the case then they should’ve said,”okay. We f–ked up. I apologize “. It just makes me wonder if we knew more than we were saying

              Comment by Tim — February 17, 2016 @ 5:24 am

            • JEFF. I do not think that those KZ ship had been adressed to Sweden. I suspect that the Nazis hoped that those ships will be targeted and destruckted by Allied Planes. One ought to know wether the SS men guardin the prisoniers had been German or of foreign origin. How many SS men and how many prisoniers had been under the casualties?

              Comment by Wolf Murmelstein — February 19, 2016 @ 8:02 am

              • Altogether, there were 200,000 volunteers in the SS from other countries, besides Germany, including Great Britain. There were 40,000 Spanish volunteers in the Waffen-SS, and another 40,000 volunteers from Belgium. The Dutch volunteers numbered 50,000. There were 20,000 Frenchmen in the Charlemagne Division from France, and there was a Flemish Division from Flanders.

                The Waffen-SS included three Divisions from Finland, and volunteers from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Denmark. There were also Waffen-SS units from the Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia and Armenia.

                So why were soldiers from other countries fighting on the side of Germany? Because the Germans were fighting the Communists, and these soldiers did not want Europe to be taken over by the Communists. America fought on the side of Communism and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt gave half of Europe to the Communists at the Yalta Conference. It was not until 1989, with the fall of the Soviet Union, that Europe was freed from Communism.

                Comment by furtherglory — February 19, 2016 @ 8:24 am

                • Bottom line the USA backed the wrong country…..they should of made an alliance with the Germans and kicked Russia’s ass but they didn’t.
                  Problem is, there wouldn’t of been the lie of the six million, and the Jews would of had nothing to complain about now.
                  The Jews were happy with death and destruction even if some of them suffered. Them working for the Germans was considered suffering.
                  But most of them make it out alive so it wasn’t so bad until the reparations scam kicked in and they needed some good stories to get on the payroll.
                  So they came up with some great HoloHoax stories and here are are today. Of course everyone seems to be happy, the Jews got their hush money, and Israel got their own country. The USA is now run by the Jews and the politicians have an open pocket to get election money as long as they support Israel.
                  Can’t beat this! Who says the Jews can’t do anything right? Right for them and all who support them…..

                  Jim Rizoli
                  CCFIILE.COM
                  RIZOLITV.COM
                  MRTAPMAN@GMAIL.COM

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 19, 2016 @ 9:50 am

                • Dig it ! Right on ! Let’s not forget the POS Ruskies locked down one of General Dolittle’s Raider crews. Nips executed 3 of the Raiders,the Ruskies locked down another crew. Who’s the “real” enemy here? General Patton was right. Take the German POWs,give em a gun and let’s kick Stalins ass. Let’s not forget the savage Ruskies and their lil rape/murder spree they went off on in Berlin. Talk about kissing their ass. How f–ked up is that?

                  Comment by tim — February 19, 2016 @ 10:20 am

                • I got something from the holocaust museum. Their raising hell about the re-release of Mein Kampf . What’s going on with that. I somehow don’t think they’d scream and hollar if the had a re-release of Anton LeVeys “the satanic bible”. I got it on my iPhone. I just started it. Pretty interesting so far.

                  Comment by Tim — February 19, 2016 @ 10:38 am

          • any sane reason to do so

            Actually there were quite ‘sane reasons’: 1) to prevent (former) inmates unleashing mayhem (eg robbery, rape, murder, etc) on the local civilian population, and 2) so that SS personnel who remained behind (to prevent the aforementioned mayhem) were not captured and murdered by either the inmates and/or the troops who liberated the camp — aren’t those rather obviously ‘sane reasons’? — I know you’ve read every book ever published, but there is a book that tries to show how bad things really were amidst the chaos and deprivation at war’s end, for everyone, including German civilians: Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War IIIn Savage Continent, Keith Lowe describes a continent where individual Germans and collaborators were rounded up and summarily executed.

            Sie sind einfach unglaublich dumm.

            Comment by eah — February 17, 2016 @ 1:50 am

            • eah
              I don’t know if your message is meant for me me, all I can tell you that I was there and seen it all to the bitter end.

              Comment by Herbert Stolpmann — February 17, 2016 @ 4:38 am

              • meant for me

                No, it wasn’t — certainly not this part: Sie sind einfach unglaublich dumm — apologies for any confusion.

                I was there and seen it all to the bitter end

                That is fascinating — Wolf talks about the remaining survivors/witnesses being ‘precious resources’, and people like you are definitely that — I once met an elderly German woman who vividly remembered standing by the road while Hitler rode thru her village in an open car — she still had an old copy (in very good condition) of the Hoffmann book ‘Mit Hitler in Polen’ — many thanks for your valuable contributions here, which I always enjoy reading — I also look at your blog too.

                Comment by eah — February 17, 2016 @ 4:53 am

            • “Actually there were quite ‘sane reasons’: 1) to prevent (former) inmates unleashing mayhem (eg robbery, rape, murder, etc) on the local civilian population,”

              Bullshit.
              Generally the inmates had more to fear from the SS men guarding them or the surrounding German civilians freaked out by atrocity propaganda.
              There were several instances where the SS guards got tired of trucking their charges around and opened fire. The same thing happened at concentration camps. In one instance locals helped track down inmates and participated in the massacre.
              It’s also hard for starving and sick inmates to rape anyone.

              “2) so that SS personnel who remained behind (to prevent the aforementioned mayhem) were not captured and murdered by either the inmates and/or the troops who liberated the camp”

              Sadly, those incidents did happen. Unfortunately the troops that participated in such massacres were never punished. However, the Nazi government made things worse by insisting on playing an extended game of “keep away” from the allied forces that wound up liberating those inmates anyway…….and making sure that those inmates were in the worst conditions imaginable.

              aren’t those rather obviously ‘sane reasons’?

              See above.

              “— I know you’ve read every book ever published, but there is a book that tries to show how bad things really were amidst the chaos and deprivation at war’s end, for everyone, including German civilians: Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II”

              Been there. Done that.
              It’s a great book.

              “— In Savage Continent, Keith Lowe describes a continent where individual Germans and collaborators were rounded up and summarily executed.”

              Did you actually read it? The above quote seems like it came from a review.

              Comment by Jeff K. — February 17, 2016 @ 5:08 am

              • The above quote seems like it came from a review.

                It did come from a blurb — so what? — and yes I did read the book.

                Bullshit.

                This shows what a disingenuous ass you are — it is clearly beyond dispute that thousands of KZ inmates, suddenly without any supervision, not to mention probably food, and full of hate for Germans (understandably), posed a real threat to local communities — they would see these, as well as the people there, as targets to pillage (also partly understandable since they did have urgent unmet human needs, eg food) — and that the better course of action, from the German point of view, was to attempt to evacuate the inmates (no matter how cruel that may seem today, and probably was then) — it takes a special kind of intellectual dishonesty to deny something as obvious as that — but you are fully qualified there.

                responsibility for this tragedy

                And the “responsibility” for the sinking of a ship falls on those who sunk the ship (duh). Traveling by ship in an active war zone definitely entails a certain amount of risk — but that does not mean those who decided to take that risk are ‘responsible’ when the ship is sunk. Except I guess to an intellectually dishonest jerk like you.

                Comment by eah — February 17, 2016 @ 5:40 am

                • “It did come from a blurb — so what? — and yes I did read the book.”

                  I only ask because Schlageter once quoted a book review to me (which Talbot took as gospel) without reading the book.

                  Bullshit.

                  “This shows what a disingenuous ass you are — it is clearly beyond dispute that thousands of KZ inmates, suddenly without any supervision, not to mention probably food, and full of hate for Germans (understandably), posed a real threat to local communities”

                  Sure.
                  Now please name incidents where freed concentration camp inmates attacked the local population.
                  It isn’t out of the realm of possibility that it happened I just need to know exactly when and where it did.
                  The Nazi government spent years spreading propaganda about dangerous inmates. This conditioned the population to think the inmates were deadly. The
                  reality is that most of these poor people were in no condition to do much damage.

                  “— they would see these, as well as the people there, as targets to pillage (also partly understandable since they did have urgent unmet human needs, eg food) — and that the better course of action, from the German point of view, was to attempt to evacuate the inmates (no matter how cruel that may seem today, and probably was then)”

                  Possibly. Or instead of trekking them around you could have left them in Poland or the Baltics. This means more care available to actual inmates in Germany.
                  Or, you could just feed them in the camps. Reports indicate there were storerooms packed with food in or by the camps (which the inmates did break into).

                  “— it takes a special kind of intellectual dishonesty to deny something as obvious as that — but you are fully qualified there.”

                  No, what I want is proof, not words.

                  responsibility for this tragedy

                  “And the “responsibility” for the sinking of a ship falls on those who sunk the ship (duh). Traveling by ship in an active war zone definitely entails a certain amount of risk — but that does not mean those who decided to take that risk are ‘responsible’ when the ship is sunk.”

                  After what Stolpman said about the ships going to Sweden I realized I mixed up incidents. There were ships that the SS used to “evacuate” inmates from the Baltics to Germany that the Soviets torpedoed. Again, if you aren’t trying to play “keep away” then those people don’t drown.

                  “Except I guess to an intellectually dishonest jerk like you.”

                  Wow, I got English that time.
                  Thanks, butter cheeks.

                  Sincerely,
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — February 17, 2016 @ 6:40 am

                • You wrote: “Now please name incidents where freed concentration camp inmates attacked the local population.”

                  The freed inmates of Buchenwald went to Weimar and attacked the citizens. The freed inmates of Dachau, along with American soldiers, went to the town of Dachau and attacked citizens.

                  Comment by furtherglory — February 17, 2016 @ 7:29 am

                • Yeah. I’ve always said if they’re in the sorry ass shape everyone said they were in,where they gonna find the energy to kick anyone’s ass. This is one topic of history,that’s gonna remain f–ked up. Seems nobody can agree on anything. Everything in a war is confusing as hell. My Lai. Lt. Cally did what his COs told him to do,but with enough lies,they covered everything up and made Cally the patsy. Like the adage goes,”truth is the first casualty in war”. WW2 was no different. So many conflicting stories with this point on the history timeline,that I don’t think the truth will ever be known. That’s why I like this site. I get both sides of the story. Sometimes I go with the Jew side,sometimes I’ll go with the white boys side. I like the way FG runs the site. I’ve had questions. Sometimes somebody will mention a place or a name. If not much information is given,FG will usually step in and expound on the subject,by directing the reader to a link,where FG originally wrote about the topic. Still may not get all the answers,but you’ll have a better understanding.

                  Comment by Tim — February 17, 2016 @ 7:43 am

                • Now please name incidents where freed concentration camp inmates attacked the local population.

                  Let me explain it so that even you can (hoffentlich) understand: I don’t have to provide proof of a single incident — now pay attention here: to claim the German policy of evacuating KZs, rather than abandoning them and leaving the inmates to fend for themselves, was understandable, I don’t have to give proof of a single incident where KZ inmates harmed civilians — to justify the policy as understandable, I just have to provide a rationale, a sensible rationale, a reason (or reasons) for the policy/practice that make sense — which I did.

                  Comment by eah — February 18, 2016 @ 3:25 am

                • “Let me explain it so that even you can (hoffentlich) understand:”

                  Let me explain this so that you will understand:

                  I don’t read or speak German.
                  So, when you use German phrases or words to someone who doesn’t understand the language you come off as an ass.
                  I wanted to make this clear to you to prevent future misunderstandings.

                  “I don’t have to provide proof of a single incident”

                  I think you do. FG at least had the courtesy to give examples of incidents. I can only find records of those incidents on this blog and on IHR’s website so I have to call those incidents into question.

                  “— now pay attention here: ”

                  I’ll try even though I find you a pretentious ass.

                  “to claim the German policy of evacuating KZs, rather than abandoning them and leaving the inmates to fend for themselves, was understandable, I don’t have to give proof of a single incident where KZ inmates harmed civilians — to justify the policy as understandable, I just have to provide a rationale, a sensible rationale, a reason (or reasons) for the policy/practice that make sense — which I did.”

                  That no longer works for me. I’ve tried to use similar arguments in the past only to be told I needed to provide proof.
                  So, while I think that evacuating the inmates of German concentration camps does indeed make some sense it does not for forcing prisoners from the Baltics and Poland on death marches.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — February 18, 2016 @ 2:38 pm

            • “Sie sind einfach unglaublich dumm.”

              Nice change up, calling me stupid in German, Nancy.

              Sincerely,
              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — February 17, 2016 @ 5:11 am

              • “Sie sind einfach unblaublich dumm.” A real German would say “dummkopf”.

                Comment by furtherglory — February 17, 2016 @ 7:36 am

                • Google translate had a hard time with the phrase but I got the gist of it.
                  May be eah should stop using German phrases if he/she does not speak it very well.
                  Jeff

                  BTW, for some reason I am not getting replies by e-mail.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — February 17, 2016 @ 7:56 am

              • Here is an example of the use of dummkopf: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2011/09/europe-201109

                A real German would strike his forehead with the palm of his hand while saying dummkopf.

                Comment by furtherglory — February 17, 2016 @ 8:14 am

        • Tim
          There is a book available trough Amazon, Google: Amazon.com: The 100-Year Secret: Britain’s Hidden World.
          Infesting passage reads:
          ‘The survivors from the sinking who reached the shore were shot by SS troops, although 350 prisoners managed to escape from the massacre. Allan Wyse, formerly of 193 Fighter Squadron said “We used our cannon fire at the chaps in the water … we shot them up with 20 mm cannons in the water. Horrible thing, but we were told to do it and we did it. That’s war.” Among the survivors was Erwin Geschonneck, who would later become a notable German actor, and whose story was made into a film in 1982.

          Comment by Herbert Stolpmann — February 16, 2016 @ 7:30 pm

  2. FURTHERGLORY. You as usual are looking for every possible fault in accounts of survivors. 1. Schwartz when at 14 facing the selection at Auschwitz could have been selected for exterination thoiugh forced labor when at a glance appeared fit for work. Many 14 old youngsters had been hold fit for work and had a chance of survival. 2. The history of this Death Train shows that forcing prisoniers – who had no choice at all – had been only another way to kill them. 3. Survivors had been too weak to start the revenge actions or so; that had been a Nazi tale Himmler told the Red Cross Delegates when refusing to hand over other Camps. 4. Who had beaten to death the captured SS men – not soldiers (!) – the weak survivors of the USA Soldiers? What is the version of USA Comands?

    Comment by Wolf Murmelstein — February 16, 2016 @ 9:15 am

    • You wrote: “Survivors had been too weak to start the revenge actions or so; that had been a Nazi tale Himmler told the Red Cross Delegates when refusing to hand over other Camps.”

      What you wrote is completely and totally wrong.

      Here is what really happened:

      The Bergen-Belsen concentration camp was voluntarily turned over to the Allied 21st Army Group, a combined British-Canadian unit, on April 15, 1945 by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, the man who was in charge of all the concentration camps. Bergen-Belsen was in the middle of the war zone where British and German troops were fighting in the last days of World War II and there was a danger that the typhus epidemic in the camp would spread to the troops on both sides.

      Before negotiations with the British began, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the head of the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA), had sent an order on April 7, 1945, directly to the Commandant of Bergen-Belsen, Josef Kramer, that all the prisoners in the camp should be killed, rather than let them fall into the hands of the enemy, according to Gerald Fleming, author of “Hitler and the Final Solution,” who wrote that this order had come from Hitler himself. When this news reached representatives of the World Jewish Congress in Stockholm, they contacted Felix Kersten, a Swedish chiropractor who had treated Himmler. According to Fleming, Kersten succeeded in persuading Himmler to reverse the order. When Hitler heard this, he flew into a rage, according to Fleming.

      Eva Olsson was a 20-year-old Hungarian Jewess who was sent to Auschwitz in May 1944 and later transferred to Bergen-Belsen where she was liberated on April 15, 1945. After Olsson gave a talk to students at the Canadian WC Eaket Secondary School in Blind River, “The Standard” reported the following from her presentation:

      “Six days before we were liberated the Gestapo (Germany’s secret police) had given orders that on April 15, at 3 o’clock in the afternoon all prisoners were to be shot.”

      The shootings continued even after the camp was seized, done out of sight of Allied forces.

      Olsson explains after the camp was taken a British officer made a declaration. The man said for every prisoner killed now that the camp was taken a German official or guard would be executed immediately.

      Hungarian soldiers in the Germany Army, who had been sent to keep order while the camp was transferred to the British, were in fact shot by the British, according to British soldiers who participated in the liberation.

      Comment by furtherglory — February 16, 2016 @ 9:35 am

      • Okay if that order came directly from hitler,wouldn’t there be a order on paper with his signature? I heard hitler signed only one document ( don’t remember what it was) throughout WW2. Whatever it was could be very damning for hitler. They said after that,he never put his name on anything. Instead he had his top dogs in the military sign off on shit.

        Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 10:21 am

        • FURTHERGLORY. TIM, In the last months of III Reich Hitler lived in full isolation in his Headquarter and all the orders came from the FUEHRER HEADQUARTER runn for the “current affairs” by Martin Bormann. The interesting account confirms that the responsability of USA and UK military for what occured and not of the liberated, too weak, surviving inmates.

          Comment by Wolf Murmelstein — February 16, 2016 @ 11:07 am

          • I wrote about Martin Bormann on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/were-the-nazis-godless/

            Comment by furtherglory — February 16, 2016 @ 11:16 am

          • I remember from history he cut himself off from everybody. What I was referring to happened early on in the war. From what I heard. I don’t know who he thought he’d get in trouble with. At that time there was really no one he was losing sleep over. I don’t know. Maybe he had a moment of clarity and realized if shit went south on him,he could end up in a world of shit because of his signature. This is all conjecture on my part. If I could remember where I read or heard this,I could give the reason why he wigged out over this. I probably heard it on this history channel. If that’s the case,then o take it with a grain of salt. History channel is just another group of liberal pukes.

            Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 12:34 pm

            • Tim, what you are referring to is the “Euthanasia Order” authorizing the killing of the disabled inmates. Hitler signed this on October 1st, 1939. He backdated this to September 1st, 1939.
              This is what became known as the “T-4 Action.”
              There was a severe backlash in Germany once word of the killings got out. As a consequence Hitler no longer signed such orders that dealt with the extermination of minorities.
              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — February 16, 2016 @ 12:42 pm

              • I wrote about the “euthanasia order” on these two blog posts: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/euthanasia/

                Comment by furtherglory — February 16, 2016 @ 1:04 pm

                • It’s amazing how people will make a big deal about any governments euthanasia program but yet they turned a blind eye tell if tens of millions of abortions that I’ve done all the time. So does it really matter anymore. l
                  Life is life whether it’s a little life or big life.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 16, 2016 @ 1:16 pm

                • FGs not a believer ( certainly entitled to that right), but I am. If the ol man upstairs don’t think those people should live,then he’ll deal with it. I even understand hitlers Lebensborne program. I may not agree with ,but it makes perfect. Yeah the kids are born out of wedlock,but they were trying to build a new country that required a certain way of thinking. Nothing wrong with that I guess. I’m not gonna bump someone off because their mentally divergent. Germany ain’t the only ones guilty of this kinda shit. We were pulling a similar stunt here in America at one time.

                  Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 1:44 pm

              • Then that’s the one. He never signed anything after that. I guess he figured something might blow up in him . It’s kinda like the corporate world. How many CEOs do you signing shit. It’s usually the people under them. It’s whole lot easier that way

                Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 1:31 pm

      • Here is a testimony from a British soldier that was there:

        THE LIBERATION OF BELSEN CONCENTRATION CAMP

        A personal account

        By Leonard Berney, Lt-Col R.A. T.D.(Rtd)

        At the beginning of April 1945 I was a Staff Officer (Anti-Aircraft Artillery), rank of Major, attached to the HQ of VIII Corps, of the British 2nd. Army.

        On 12th. April our Corps HQ was at the town of Winsen, about 50Km North-East of Hannover; we had just crossed the Aller river. The front line was rapidly moving East. A Colonel Schmidt of the German Army was escorted through our front line to our Corp HQ; he was in a motorcycle and side car and was waving a white flag. He met with our Brigadier Chief of Staff. Schmidt said that we were approaching a camp called Bergen-Belsen which contained civilian political prisoners and that typhus had broken out there. He had been sent by his general to propose that the area around the camp should not be fought over for fear that the prisoners might escape and spread the disease to both armies.

        It was agreed that, as soon as our front line reached a certain point, a truce zone would be established around the camp. The units of the German army were to march out, with their weapons, but the SS camp guards were to stay behind and hand over the camp to an advance party from our side. The camp guards would then be allowed to leave.

        Our advanced units reached that line on 15th. April. I was told by our Chief of Staff to take a jeep and a driver and rendezvous with Lt-Col. Taylor, the CO of 63rd Anti-Tank Regt, who had been given the job of entering the truce zone and taking charge of Belsen camp. I was to report back as soon as possible to the Chief of Staff and the Corps Commander and give them an eye witness report of the situation in the camp.

        I arrived at the camp entrance just as the 63rd. arrived. About 30 SS guards (some were women, all were armed), with Captain Joseph Kramer at their head, had lined up as a reception committee. As I recall, Kramer had some document ready for Col. Taylor to sign. At that point we heard shooting coming from the camp (we could not see into from where we were). Kramer explained that some of the prisoners were rioting and trying to raid the food stores and that the guards in the camp were having to open fire on them.

        Taylor ordered the SS to lay down their weapons and for our soldiers to stand guard over the them. Lt. Col Taylor took one of the tracked vehicles and a Lt. Sington who had arrived with his loud-speaker truck, into the camp. I went with Taylor and we toured around part of the camp. Sington made announcements in German that the British army had arrived to take over the camp and for the prisoners to stay where they were.

        I remember being completely shattered. The dead bodies laying beside the road, the starving emaciated prisoners still mostly behind barbed wire, the open mass graves containing hundreds of corpses, the stench, the sheer horror of the place, were indescribable. None of us who entered the camp that had any warning of what we were about to see or had ever experienced anything remotely like it before. After this brief tour we returned to the entrance and Taylor ordered all the SS to be arrested and put under guard in their nearby barrack huts. He then wrote a report which I took back to Corp HQ; it was night-time before I got there. I gave Taylor’s written report and my own verbal report to the General and other staff officers. The Corp Commander and his staff set about rounding up all the food stores, water trucks and ambulance/hospital services they could get hold of – the great liberation effort had started.

        The next day I was ordered to go back to the camp and attach myself to the 224 Military Government Detachment (the CO was a Major Miles) which had been sent into the camp to take overall charge. The water supply to the camp had apparently broken down some time before. I was given the job of taking charge of the deployment of the water trucks which arrived from many units around, and also to get stand pipes rigged up from material we found in the camp stores. We made use of the German Fire Brigade men and equipment who had been rounded up to help.

        Soon after we got the water organized, I was given the job of scouting the district, and in particular a German Army Panzer (Tank) barracks which was reportedly nearby, to find and requisition food supplies for the camp. I took a jeep and one or two soldiers and soon located the barracks. It contained vary large quantities of food. I also located a well stocked dairy in the village near the camp.

        The Panzer Barracks at Hohne, a short distance from the Belsen camp, was quickly converted into a vast hospital and a transit camp. I was given the job of supervising the sending off those who were not desperately ill from the old camp to this new camp. The process was for the prisoners to discard all their clothes, to go under the showers (which we had rigged up), be thoroughly de-loused with DDT sprayed with pressure air hoses (which we had also rigged up), get dressed in clothes commandeered from the German civilian population, and then be loaded onto lorries to be ferried up to the new camp in the Panzer barracks. I and some of our soldiers and a group of conscripted German civilian nurses worked 12 to 14 hours a day, ‘processing’ several thousand weak and sick people every day. Even at this rate, it took two or three weeks to empty the camp. This meant that thousands of prisoners had to wait in the old disease ridden camp until we could shift them out to safety. As soon as the last prisoner had left, Belsen Concentration Camp was burned down.

        In this period, those of us who worked in the camp were liberally sprayed with DDT every morning (typhus is spread by lice). The medics inoculated us against various diseases. Fortunately, few if any soldiers contracted typhus or any other disease other than dysentery, which almost all of us had – but we kept on working.

        Just before the camp was finally cleared, I was given the job of being in charge of the ‘fit’ people in the new camp in the Panzer barracks. They consisted of some 20,000 people in various stages of malnutrition and emaciation, but not bad enough to be hospitalised. The prisoners from Belgium, Holland, France and other allied countries were swiftly repatriated. That left the great majority, later known as Displaced Persons (“DPs”), who had originated from Russian and Russian occupied countries such as Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Yugoslavia etc. and who were afraid to go back ‘home’. At its peak, there were some 20,000 people in this ‘Belsen DP Camp’. I did this job, ‘The DP Camp Commandant’, for some two months. With the enormous effort put in by our soldiers and the less ill of the ex-prisoners themselves, life was made at least tolerable for those poor people. One newspaper even told its readers that Belsen had been turned into a holiday camp!

        In all, I was involved with the liberation of Belsen camp for over 3 months. Eventually, I handed over the camp to UNRRA (the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency) and I was posted to the State of Schleswig as British Army Military Governor. In September 1945 I was called to L�neberg to give evidence at the War Crimes trial of Kramer and the other 43 SS guards. The court sentenced Kramer and 9 others of the guards to death.

        People asked me, “What was it like?” No words of mine could adequately describe the sights, the sounds, the stench, and the sheer horror of that camp, and I will not attempt to do so here. Within two or three days of the camp’s liberation, many journalist, broadcasters, film crews and politicians came to Belsen. Much has been written about the conditions we found. There are many web sites describing the scene – look up “Belsen Concentration Camp”.

        At the time, some politicians and religious leaders criticized the British Army for not having done enough to relieve the suffering of the prisoners. As one who was there, the task before us was the like of which nobody had any knowledge or experience. Neither had we the slightest idea of what we were to discover. All of us were in a state of utter shock – young soldiers (most were in their ‘teens or early twenties) as well as senior officers. I, myself, had turned 25 only a few days before.

        What SHOULD you do when faced by 60,000 dead, sick and dying people? We were in the army to fight a war and to beat the enemy. What we were suddenly thrust into was beyond anyone’s comprehension, let alone a situation which could have been organized and effectively planned for. For example, one terrible fact: many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of starving people died BECAUSE we fed them the only food we had, our army rations – who in the circumstances could be level-headed enough to think that out in advance?.

        It was said that after a few days, Gen. Montgomery, the British Army C-in-C, told Gen. Eisenhower, the Allies Supreme Commander, “…either we deal with Belsen camp, or we get on with the war – we can’t do both!”

        Comment by srebrenica — February 16, 2016 @ 1:58 pm

        • The theatrics. “I remember being shattered”. How much war has this asshole seen? All the sudden this shit gets to him. I’ve seen my share of dead bodies. Enemy or not,you’re gonna feel something. If you say you don’t ,you’re not a liar,but a damn liar. Shit with the damn Limey in the courtroom,I’d be hard pressed to tell who’s the defendant. He’s probably coached. How do we know he wasn’t told what to say. I’m starting to figure out,there was a lot of shit going on in these courtrooms,that wasn’t kosher.

          Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 2:45 pm

        • So Camp Commandant Kramer get killed for what? Trying to deal with a bad situation of overcrowding and disease. Why weren’t the British charged with war crimes for death by a meal.

          By yours truly

          Jim Rizoli
          CCFIILE.COM
          RIZOLITV.COM

          Comment by jrizoli — February 16, 2016 @ 4:21 pm

          • Um, Jim, the fault for the conditions of the camps lies with the SS, who continued to stuff prisoners into overcrowded camps.
            The British were trying to save lives.
            They messed up, but at least they tried to save the prisoners instead of letting them rot. You know, like the SS did.
            I still owe you an essay. I will work on it, sorry, been busy.

            Comment by Jeff K. — February 16, 2016 @ 7:22 pm

            • Time for the truth…
              http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n3p23_Weber.html

              JR

              Comment by jrizoli — February 16, 2016 @ 7:27 pm

              • https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Kramer

                More “truth.”
                Read above.
                Jim, your article basically said the same thing I did, I just didn’t add the nauseating Nazi apologia.
                The SS insisted on stuffing Bergen-Belsen full of inmates, long after there was any reason for it.
                Jeff

                Comment by Jeff K. — February 16, 2016 @ 7:57 pm

                • Jeff I think you’re missing the whole point here the reason why the camps were overcrowded was because the Allies were bombing everything there was no place for these poor people to go anymore so they ended up wherever they ended up and this was one of the camps they ended up in. There was no choice but to put them there the Germans didn’t want them there either but what are you going to do let these people roam the streets so they took then in and the problems continued to decay. You make it look like that nazis created this problem which is disingenuous they didn’t create the problem the Allies created the problem because they were bombing everything.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 16, 2016 @ 8:05 pm

                • We. Should’ve just bombed the camps. Why not. Didn’t bother us to bomb Dresden back to the Stone Age age. We were clearly able to do that with complete impunity . Should’ve been able to do it with the camps. God bless Napalm and Du Pont,right?

                  Comment by Tim — February 17, 2016 @ 4:47 am

          • A little light reading for you Jim:

            http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/Law-Reports_Vol-2.pdf

            And Kramer spoke about the gas chambers at Auschwitz too:

            “When asked what was his personal reaction to the use of gas chambers, he said: “I thought and· I asked myself, is it really right about these persons who go to the gas chambers, and whether that person who signed for the first time these orders will be able to answer for it.” Under cross-examination he admitted having gassed 80 prisoners previously at Natzweiller camp.”

            Comment by srebrenica — February 17, 2016 @ 3:52 pm

            • Apparently you have no problem with people being tortured when they give their confessions. Joseph Kramer is no different than the other ones who gave false testimony because of being tortured. I don’t know how you can even look anyone in the face thinking that this could be accepted in a court of law.
              When people are tortured they will say anything I’m too old when there tortured I guess you don’t think so huh.

              JR

              http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Weberb.html

              Comment by jrizoli — February 17, 2016 @ 4:03 pm

              • Jim – I would take a guess you didn’t even read it – take a look at the defence case

                Comment by srebrenica — February 17, 2016 @ 5:16 pm

                • I read many of the defense cases especially with the Nuremberg trials and the confessions made there, that was enough for me. Once you see that there’s a trail of the same lies than you know that something is wrong with the picture. I don’t have to keep reading lies, lies and more lies to see that these people were tortured to give their confessions. I don’t trust anything the Russian said I don’t trust anything the Nuremberg trials or any of the trials said because most of the information that was presented at those Trials are lies.
                  After nuremburg trials they talked about shrunken heads lampshades made of skin soap made of Jews and all this other b******* and now they don’t believe those things yet people went to their deaths saying that these things are true so what do you think about that? Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that people went to their deaths for statements and false information presented that was not true at all and they knew it.
                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 17, 2016 @ 5:44 pm

              • Please provide proof that Kramer was tortured.

                Jeff

                Comment by Jeff K. — February 18, 2016 @ 2:18 pm

                • I’m just saying something to think about here,so don’t get pissed. I think it would be hard to find proof of someone being tortured. You got those assholes Amin and Castro. They pretty much used torture to bring people around to their way of thinking. If that didn’t work,a bullet between the eyes was quite effective. I’m just saying unless there’s written records, how’s it gonna be proven. The whole thing with this being the holocaust,the witnesses can say the Krauts tortured Santa Claus and everyone will buy the shit.

                  Comment by Tim — February 18, 2016 @ 2:46 pm

                • Jeff that’s all I can say is when you show me a real life homicidal gas chamber that was used to gazzz the Gooz then I’ll reply with the evidence of Kramer.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 18, 2016 @ 3:33 pm

                • Jim – the trial document doesn’t deal with confessions. If you took the time to read it. you wouldn’t be spouting your usual bull***t about lampshades and heads.. The defence case and review made some interesting points about the trial and its circumstances.

                  Comment by srebrenica — February 18, 2016 @ 5:05 pm

                • Jeff, you mean lampshades and shrunken is not an issue for you?
                  Do you know how many people went to their deaths with BS like that?

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — February 18, 2016 @ 6:57 pm

            • I wrote about the Natzweiler camp, and the alleged gas chamber there, on this page of my website: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Natzweiler/History/GasChamber.html

              I went to visit the Natzweiler camp Memorial Site several years ago, but I was not allowed to see the gas chamber building — not even from the outside. Why is everything about this gas chamber being kept secret?

              I blogged about the Natzweiler gas chamber on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/was-there-a-gas-chamber-at-natzweiler-it-depends-on-your-definition-of-the-term-gas-chamber/

              and on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/the-so-called-lethal-gas-chamber-at-natzweiler/

              and this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/the-infamous-natzweiler-struthof-concentration-camp/

              In my humble opinion, the Natzweiler gas chamber is a joke. That’s why no one is allowed to see it, or even get near it.

              Comment by furtherglory — February 17, 2016 @ 5:14 pm

              • Didn’t you say one of the gas houses had actual shower heads and nothing to do with gas. I remember something about the handles too.

                Comment by Tim — February 17, 2016 @ 6:03 pm

        • Thanks srebrenica, that’s an interesting personal account by Lt. Col. Leonard Berney. Even if he has been asked by his superiors to “flavour it up” a little bit, it is still a good summary of what went on in Bergen-Belsen at the time of the liberation and immediately afterwards.

          Two of his statements caught my eye;- “The water supply to the camps had apparently broken down some time before.” – and;- “Fortunately, few if any soldiers contracted typhus or any other disease other than dysentery, which almost all of us had.”

          I wonder if dysentery could be the primary cause of the terribly emaciated bodies that we have seen in the photos taken at Bergen-Belsen. Perhaps many of the victims actually died from typhus and other illnesses, but their bodies were already wasting away due to dysentery, caused by massive dehydration due to the lack of fresh water supplies. Dysentery is highly infectious, and is caused by poor sanitation and contaminated food and water. Its symptoms include vomiting, diorreah and dehydration. Two thirds of the human body consists of water, and without it being replenished then the body would rapidly lose substance and shrivel away.

          Comment by Talbot — February 17, 2016 @ 4:48 am

          • Talbot – Undoubtedly, it was all of those reasons. However the Germans were responsible for what happened at Belsen – they put too many people in too small an area with not enough supplies.

            Wikipedia – In January 1945, the SS took over the POW hospital and increased the size of Bergen-Belsen. As eastern concentration camps were evacuated before the advance of the Red Army, at least 85,000 people were transported in cattle cars or marched to Bergen-Belsen. Before that the number of prisoners at Belsen had been much smaller. In July 1944 there were 7,300, by December 1944 the number had increased to 15,000, and by February 1945 it had risen to 22,000. However, it then soared to around 60,000 by April 15, 1945 This overcrowding led to a vast increase in deaths from disease: particularly typhus, as well as tuberculosis, typhoid fever, dysentery and malnutrition in a camp originally designed to hold about 10,000 inmates.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp

            Comment by srebrenica — February 17, 2016 @ 1:59 pm

  3. This is what I refer to when I say I run across a lot of lies on this site. I guess I should put it another way. All the lies that I run across,that are in the stories on this site. Perfect example. This Rahr fella. He can’t even keep his lies straight in the same interview. If he said something in one interviewthen has an interview couple months and his story changes,people might not notice it so much. This fool contradicts himself in the “same interview”. The one I like is the Jews kicking the guards asses with our boys helping. If the Jews were in such shit sorry shape,where are they gonna get the energy to do that? If they could gather up any adrenaline to do this and they were in such sorry ass shape,the adrenaline rush would’ve probably killed them. The Jews hate the guards so much,yet they’d get soccer games going with them. The reasons they kept the inmates rounded up makes perfect sense. Didn’t want the spread of any disease. That sounds like they’re trying to be responsible,not cruel. I noticed one thing in this story. The “lone survivor” amidst all the dead bodies . It seems like every story I’ve read that involves this type scenario,there’s always the lone survivor mixed in with all the dead bodies. Amazing,ain’t it.

    Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 9:14 am

    • “there’s always the lone survivor mixed in with all the dead bodies” – Yes, isn’t it amazing that he or she lives to tell the tale, and thus the world is privileged to hear the testimony of a poor suffering individual who survived against the odds.

      The photo of the “lone survivor of the death train” must surely be a reconstructed scene ( that’s if it happened at all! ). What are the chances of a photographer being present at the very moment that two G.I.’s are finding a man alive in a railway waggon. It looks terribly staged, and the “survivor” of the ordeal looks suspiciously fit and well to me.

      Comment by Talbot — February 16, 2016 @ 10:26 am

      • Okay. That makes more sense. Hey. If the restaged the raising of the flag at Iwo,they could most certainly do it with this. The only probl here,people now ain’t as naive as they were back then. To expound on that,people were sick of war by then. So let’s get out some heartwarming pictures. American soldiers save a Jewish prisoner. What’s not to like about that. The regular everyday folks that saw the picture may have sensed something was amiss,because with all the death and destruction of the previous years,they’ll take it. Just like the flag raising at Iwo. We now know those weren’t the Marines that raised the original flag. Don’t make any difference that we know the truth. People are gonna go on thinking those were the real marines that raised the flag.

        Comment by Tim — February 16, 2016 @ 12:19 pm


RSS feed for comments on this post.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Blog at WordPress.com.

%d bloggers like this: