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March 13, 2016

“victimhood cannot be the foundation stone of Jewish identity”

Filed under: Germany, Holocaust, TV shows — Tags: , , , — furtherglory @ 9:26 am

The title of my blog post today is the words of Charles Krauthammer.  For those readers who do not know who Charles Krauthammer is, I will save you the trouble of looking him up on Wikipedia.

The following quote is from Wikipedia:

Charles Krauthammer, MD (/ˈkraʊt.hæmər/; born March 13, 1950) is an American Pulitzer Prize-winning syndicated columnist, author, political commentator, and physician. His weekly column is syndicated to more than 400 newspapers worldwide.[1] He is a contributing editor to the Weekly Standard and a nightly panelist on Fox News’s Special Report with Bret Baier. He was a weekly panelist on PBS news program Inside Washington from 1990 until it ceased production in December 2013.

End quote

Charles Krauthammer

Charles Krauthammer

Charles Krauthammer is a frequent commentator on Bill O’Reilly’s TV news program. I have listened to Krauthammer speak many times, enough to know that he is extremely intelligent and highly informed about literally everything.  He is a person who should be greatly admired for what he has accomplished in his life, despite the adversity which he has had to overcome.

Today I read  a news article entitled Krauthammer: the Holocaust and the Jewish identity which you can read in full at

http://qctimes.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/charles-krauthammer/krauthammer-the-holocaust-and-the-jewish-identity/article_d7d30289-8671-56f8-b0ba-2ce0b13b2d79.html

The following quote is from the news article, cited above:

Begin quote

Memory is sacred, but victimhood cannot be the foundation stone of Jewish identity. Traditional Judaism has 613 commandments. The philosopher Emil Fackenheim famously said that the 614th is to deny Hitler any posthumous victories. The reduction of Jewish identity to victimhood would be one such victory. It must not be permitted.

End quote

The newspaper quote continues with this explanation:

Begin quote

Bernie Sanders is the most successful Jewish candidate for the presidency ever. It’s a rare sign of the health of our republic that no one seems to much care or even notice. Least of all, Sanders himself. Which prompted Anderson Cooper in a recent Democratic debate to ask Sanders whether he was intentionally keeping his Judaism under wraps.

“No,” answered Sanders: “I am very proud to be Jewish.” He then explained that the Holocaust had wiped out his father’s family. And that he remembered as a child seeing neighbors with concentration camp numbers tattooed on their arms. Being Jewish, he declared, “is an essential part of who I am as a human being.”

A fascinating answer, irrelevant to presidential politics but quite revealing about the state of Jewish identity in contemporary America.

Think about it. There are several alternate ways American Jews commonly explain the role Judaism plays in their lives.

(1) Practice: Judaism as embedded in their life through religious practice or the transmission of Jewish culture by way of teaching or scholarship. Think Joe Lieberman or the neighborhood rabbi.

(2) Tikkun: Seeing Judaism as an expression of the prophetic ideal of social justice. Love thy neighbor, clothe the naked, walk with God, beat swords into plowshares. As ritual and practice have fallen away over the generations, this has become the core identity of liberal Judaism. Its central mission is nothing less than to repair the world (“Tikkun olam”).

Which, incidentally, is the answer to the perennial question, “Why is it that Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic?” Because, for the majority of Jews, the social ideals of liberalism are the most tangible expressions of their prophetic Jewish faith.

When Sanders was asked about his Jewish identity, I was sure his answer would be some variation of Tikkun. On the stump, he plays the Old Testament prophet railing against the powerful and denouncing their treatment of the widow and the orphan. Yet Sanders gave an entirely different answer.

(3) The Holocaust. What a strange reply — yet it doesn’t seem so to us because it has become increasingly common for American Jews to locate their identity in the Holocaust.

For example, it’s become a growing emphasis in Jewish pedagogy from the Sunday schools to Holocaust studies programs in the various universities. Additionally, Jewish organizations organize visits for young people to the concentration camps of Europe.

End quote  from newspaper article.

1389.3 Holocaust F

Hungarian Jewish men selected for work

Hungarian women shortly after their arrival at Auschwitz-Birkenau

Hungarian women shortly after their arrival at Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp

Jews waiting for their turn to be gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau

Jews waiting for their turn to be gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau

 

 

302 Comments »

  1. So basically they’ve been at each other’s throats since they first appeared on the planet.do what started all the shit between those groups? Does it have its origins in the bible? Those peoples were around when the bible was written,so I figure the answer might be in there .

    Comment by Tim — March 21, 2016 @ 11:17 am

    • Tim wrote: “So basically they’ve been at each other’s throats since they first appeared on the planet.do what started all the shit between those groups? Does it have its origins in the bible? ”

      There is some anti-Jewish stuff in the Quran. But that didn’t prevent the Muslims of North Africa, Iraq and other countries from living peacefully with their Jewish neighbors during centuries. When the Jews were persecuted in Christian countries, life was quite pleasant for the Jews living in Muslim countries. Some Jews even favored and facilitated the Muslim invasion of Spain because a Muslim regime was more benefecial for them than a Christian regime. But Zionism has understandably sown discord in the relationship between Jews and Muslims.

      Comment by hermie — March 24, 2016 @ 3:04 am

      • Okay. What about Palestine ? They got a large population of Muslims,right. I read something a couple days ago that the first major clashes between two in the last century,started over prayer rights at the western wall. Wouldn’t that put a strain on relations between the two?

        Comment by Tim — March 24, 2016 @ 9:49 am

        • The Western Wall dispute, that escalated into the 1929 Arab riots of Palestine, was a consequence of the Zionist land-grabbing enterprise in general. The British Shaw Commission concluded that the 1929 Arab riots had occured because the local Arabs regarded the Jewish migrants ‘not only as a menace to their livelihood but as a possible overlord of the future.’ And that future vastly demonstrated how justified & almost prophetic the Arab fears were.

          Comment by hermie — March 24, 2016 @ 7:42 pm

  2. FG. I guess comments were closed on bombing of Dresden and Coventry. So I’ll make my comment here. You were followed by a gypsy boy begging for money. Like I said,”they’re bums”. The German folks are ashamed by the war their forefathers started. The nazis started the war. Not their forefathers. I almost beat the shit outta my ex brother in law from my first marriage. When I met my ex wife’s family my being part kraut came up. Her brother made the smart ass comment,”damn. We almost had all the German blood bred outta the family”. I called him down on that and he made another smart ass comment. I just hammering away on him. I saw something on tv one time about ww2. They were talking with Krauts that presently live in Germany . There was this pretty blond hair gal on there. She was about 25. She was crying here eyes out. Said she was ashamed to be German . I don’t think she had reason to be. I figure if she was working trying to make the world a better place,then she should be proud to be a German . I never knew about Coventry . I read where the Krauts only bombed Coventry for 10 hours. Us on the other hand,got a marathon going with the limies. Not stop bombing. Just how much bombing do you have to do in order to take out factories that supply the war machine? Talk about overkill. Were we that shitty of a shot when it came to bombing. Come on. They could’ve at least hit the rail lines with some accuracy. I think we were just acting like little bitches when it came to Dresden

    Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 2:16 pm

  3. “victimhood cannot be the foundation stone of Jewish identity”

    Jewish victimhood is an inescapable consequence of the present triumph of Zionism. Victimhood, culminating with the Holohoax, has always been the cornerstone of Zionism. Anchored in the age old Jewish tradition of jeremiads (named after Prophet Jeremiah), Zionism crucially needed Jewish victims and Gentile persecutors, real or imaginary. Zionism was in fact a reactionary movement, a remedy against materialistic & atheistic modernity, designed and led by a gang of racist bigots who were appalled and repelled at the sight of the fast draining of Jewry’s secular habitat in Central and Eastern Europe through Jewish emigration to the USA and the British Empire. The main purpose of Zionism was the erection of new ghetto walls to replace the falling old ghetto walls and so protect the core of Judaism, the demographic reservoir of Jewry – i.e. the Jewries of Central and Eastern Europe – from the damages of modernity and its main plague: assimilation. In America, British countries and Western Europe (especially France), assimilation was the rule and numerous Jewish migrants (especially the Young ones) used to drop their Jewish traditions and blood once arrived and settled there. Most Zionist leaders (being themselves Eastern Jews) regarded the assimilated Western Jews as pathetic fake Jews and the pious Eastern Jews as the only real Jews worth the name in this world. If real Jewry and Judaism were to survive, something had to be done in order to stop the de-Judaizing machine of Assimilationism which was turning real Jews (Eastern Jews) into fake Jews pathetically mimicking Gentiles (Western Jews) at full speed. The idea was to stop the Jewish migratory flows from Central and Eastern Europe to America, British countries and Western Europe and redirect those flows to a Jewish land where the Eastern Jews could live without anti-Jewish restrictions (unlike in Czarist Russia) AND without dropping their own Jewishness (unlike in America, British countries and Western Europe).

    Comment by hermie — March 14, 2016 @ 8:11 am

  4. I will save you the trouble of looking

    Krauthammer is a warmongering neocon Jew — he and the like-minded, both Jewish and non-Jewish, are responsible for getting America into the pointless ‘War on Terror’, which to date has killed and maimed tens of thousands of Americans (vastly non-Jewish of course), as well as who knows how many others — and looking at the state of the world today, they died and were maimed/crippled for absolutely nothing — Wikipedia does mention this: 9/11, Iraq, and the War on Terror

    For another more extreme view on Krauthammer: Charles Krauthammer’s enduring Judeocentric hatred of Europe and Western Civilization internalized by the mainstream Right

    The way he has overcome great personal misfortune (an accident left him wheelchair-bound) is admirable.

    Comment by eah — March 14, 2016 @ 6:20 am

  5. “victimhood cannot be the foundation stone of Jewish identity”

    Deb Lipstadt once said something similar.

    Comment by hermie — March 13, 2016 @ 9:05 pm

    • Debora Lipstadt does not understand that the duty of remember only in proper way – in prayers and at the Pesach/Passover evening – is a religious duty. But then we have to go on working for general wellbeing of mankind, as we learned from Profeth Jeremias..

      Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 14, 2016 @ 1:47 am

    • “What they have done” to the German people, and indeed the Russian people, the Hungarian people, the Polish people, the Baltic peoples, is exactly why they became “victims”

      Comment by Schlageter — March 14, 2016 @ 3:27 am

      • schlageter. you speak about things you know nothing echoing only nazi slogans DU PLAPERST NUR NAZI PROPAGANDA NACH UEBER SACHEN OHNE TATSACHEN ZU WISSEN, Kiss my ass – leck mich am arsch,

        Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 14, 2016 @ 1:20 pm

  6. I couldn’t help but laugh at the photo of the “Hungarian Jewish men selected for work”. What a bunch of ugly brutes they are! Would you really employ these weird, shifty-looking characters in your place of employment? – the Nazis must have been truly desperate for war workers back in 1944. And to think we have to spend Holohoax Day each year, bowing our heads in sorrow and guilt, and lighting candles of Remembrance in memory of these old rascals. I wonder if they finished up as ashes in the pond outside Krema IV at Birkenau.

    My favourite one is the guy wearing the hat – he looks like my next-door-neighbor after his wife had left him last year. The poor soul couldn’t cope; let himself go; and soon degenerated into a tramp.

    Comment by Talbot — March 13, 2016 @ 4:29 pm

    • “I couldn’t help but laugh at the photo of the “Hungarian Jewish men selected for work”. What a bunch of ugly brutes they are! Would you really employ these weird, shifty-looking characters in your place of employment?”

      Well, at least people can apply of their own free will. These men were not given a choice.
      So, which is it, Talbot? The people transported to Birkenau in 1944 looked great? Or they looked terrible?

      ” – the Nazis must have been truly desperate for war workers back in 1944.”

      Well, they got themselves into this mess. Am I supposed to feel sad that they were so desperate?

      “And to think we have to spend Holohoax Day each year, bowing our heads in sorrow and guilt, and lighting candles of Remembrance in memory of these old rascals. I wonder if they finished up as ashes in the pond outside Krema IV at Birkenau.”

      Quite possibly. Or they died on a death march. Or of typhus or starvation in Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, etc.
      Or, perhaps some of them did make it home and faced additional persecution from their neighbors. All the while grieving of their lost ones.

      “My favourite one is the guy wearing the hat – he looks like my next-door-neighbor after his wife had left him last year. The poor soul couldn’t cope; let himself go; and soon degenerated into a tramp.”

      Oh no!!!! Not an Englishman looking like a tramp!!!!!

      Jeff

      Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 4:39 pm

    • TALBOT. Those men had been fooled about work but actually they were waiting for their … gasing. You too never miss an opportunity to ridiculize the fate of victims. What kind of education had you have?
      In 1944 the deportation of Hungarian Jews had been that of women, children and elderly men. Indeed the men in working age had been called to the WORK SERVICE UNITS employed at the Russian battlefield – the mayority tortured to death – or in other force labors; very few survived.
      On this blog side no one does realize that the Nazis when pretendig to give a choise or offering an opportunity were only lying by mockering the victims. Nazis had been a deep rooted racist hatred doctrine.

      Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 14, 2016 @ 1:59 am

  7. http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/students-chant-killed-jesus-basketball-opponents-article-1.2562767

    Lmao! “Never Forget” cuts both ways…

    Comment by Schlageter — March 13, 2016 @ 4:08 pm

    • SCHLAGETER. What do You mean? WIE MEINEN SIE DAS HIER?

      Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 14, 2016 @ 2:01 am

      • Ich meine … dein Volk hat Jesus getötet , und wir sollten ” nie vergessen “

        Comment by Schlageter — March 14, 2016 @ 3:24 am

        • SCHLAGETER. Jesus war der Jude JOSHUA BAR JOSEF HA GLILI und wurde, siehe Johannes Evangeliums, vom Roemischen Statthalter Pilatus standrechticj verurteilt und hingerichtet. Heute waere Joshua Bar Josef haGlili der Rabbiner Joshua Josefson und entweder Shoah Opfer oder Ueberlebender. Er war gewiss nit arisch sondern juedisch, ein Nachkomme vom Hause David und Maria – Miriam – war die Tochter eines juedischen Priesters. Die Pfafferei hat euch in Nazi simme ganz schoen verbloedet-.

          Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 15, 2016 @ 4:14 am

  8. Somewhat OT, or not …

    Furtherglory, a few years back, I called your attention on the longer life span of Holocaust Survivors compared to Jews who emigrated to Israel before 1939.

    That was then, this is now.

    Guess what, who is the oldest man living on earth?

    Yes, he is an Auschwitz survivor!

    Of course, this exceptional title requires some precise documentation, like a birth certificate or school papers.

    Unfortunately, our chap doesn’t posess any of those, only his marriage certificate* and, I kid you not, his mother’s death certificate. (scroll a little bit & click on Haaretz article)

    What’s the use of being a Jew, if you can’t cut corners?

    Et voilà, he is officially recognised (by a coreligionist?)as the world’s oldest man at 112.

    *it’s dubious a fervently religious Jew waited to be 25, especially a century ago, to get married.

    Furtherglory, may you live that long, or more!

    Comment by a reader — March 13, 2016 @ 2:53 pm

  9. It is our duty to remember the victtims and recall the history of that great tragedy when praying or celebrating the Pesach – Pssover – evening. But then we have to go to work and make every possible effort to avoid that such events occure again. The whole Shoah Business should be wound away.

    Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 13, 2016 @ 12:15 pm

  10. The picture of the Hungarian women,”shortly after their arrival at the camp”. They’re wearing clothes. I read something on here where a Jew said, shortly after their arrival,they were stripped naked and made to stand around for hours outside with their thumb up their ass. Those ladies don’t look naked. They sure as shit ain’t standing around. You can look at their legs and see they’re walking somewhere. That guard at the back of the picture looks like he’s wondering what his ol lady is gonna cook for dinner that night. The picture below of the folks waiting “to be gassed”. They look pretty damn calm to me. Look at the men in the rear of the picture. They look like they’re just standing around shootin the shit. You gonna tell not so much as one person in that picture thought something a bit hinky was going on. The caption on the pic said they’re waiting their turn. I’m guessing if they’re the next batch to go through,they’re gonna pretty much be in the vicinity of the gas house. I mean it don’t make much sense for them to be on the other side of the camp,if they were in fact on the books to be gassed. You gonna March them across hells half acre to get them to the gas shack? The Jew memorial/museum said ,”the four largest gas shacks could has 2,000 people a pop. That don’t look like 2,000 people to me. I counted the number of people in that pic. I came up with 22 (give or take a couple). In that pic you can see the buildings in the background. If there were 2,000 people in that pic,I don’t think you’d be able to see the buildings in the back. I noticed some of the Jews in the pic didn’t have a “star of david ” sewn on their shirts. I thought all Jews were supposed to have that on their clothes. I also read somewhere that the Jews had numbers written on their clothing to describe who they were. I thought that’s what they had the tatts on their arms for.

    Comment by Tim — March 13, 2016 @ 11:36 am

    • Tim, these women have received their prison uniforms. They were selected for work, not execution. You can tell, their heads are shaved to present lice.
      Jeff

      Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 12:19 pm

      • Who were the ones that had to stand around naked? Were those the ones headed to the gas house? I mean that would make sense. Why give em clothes if your gettin ready to bump em off. Say what about the numbers written on each individual’s clothing for ID purposes. I thought that’s what the tatts were for.

        Comment by Tim — March 13, 2016 @ 1:07 pm

        • Yes, Tim, those forced to strip were gassed. They also were not given tattoos or registered into the camps.
          The Jews executed in Bunker I & II and the Action Reinhard Camps stripped outside, those executed in the Kremas stripped inside.
          Jeff

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 1:21 pm

          • If they weren’t registered when they hit the camps,then how could they keep such accurate numbers of the dead? Did they do a head count of all total Jews when they loaded them on the rail cars. Was there a pre existing number before they shipped them out to the camps? I mean it makes sense not to give em a tatt or register them if they’re already booked into the gas house. I just figure somewhere there has to be numbers of the ones that were killed

            Comment by Tim — March 13, 2016 @ 1:32 pm

            • “If they weren’t registered when they hit the camps,then how could they keep such accurate numbers of the dead?”

              Daily numbers were recorded to the statistical office.
              Research done by the former curator of Auschwitz, Piper, based his estimates on the amount of transports to the camps, existing death records, transports out of the camp to other camps, escapes and releases to get the number of the dead. Other researchers have done the same. All agree the number of dead is around a million people.

              “Did they do a head count of all total Jews when they loaded them on the rail cars.”

              Yes. The number of people in a car was written on the outside of the car (rail car).

              “Was there a pre existing number before they shipped them out to the camps?”

              I think a lot it depended on the available transportation but you are right, there was a number reached to make it worth the time and expense to transport.

              “I mean it makes sense not to give em a tatt or register them if they’re already booked into the gas house. I just figure somewhere there has to be numbers of the ones that were killed.”

              Because the camp never registered those gassed it does make the numbers subject to speculation. I don’t think anyone will ever know the absolute numbers but it can get pretty close.

              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 1:51 pm

              • You wrote: “Because the camp never registered those gassed it does make the numbers subject to speculation.”

                The prisoners who were immediately transferred to a sub-camp were not registered and the prisoners who were gassed were not registered either. It is impossible to know many many were transferred and how many were gassed, since no names were kept.

                Comment by furtherglory — March 13, 2016 @ 2:00 pm

                • “The prisoners who were immediately transferred to sub-camp were not registered and the prisoners who were gassed were not registered either. It is impossible to know many many were transferred and how many were gassed, since no names were kept.”

                  The camp that received them would register them because they have to account for that prisoner or prisoners.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 2:13 pm

                • Did the camp that received the Jews, who had been transferred, mention WHERE the Jews had been transferred FROM?

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 13, 2016 @ 2:18 pm

                • “Did the camp that received the Jews, who had been transferred, mention WHERE the Jews had been transferred FROM?”

                  You mentioned them yourself in various posts.

                  The Hungarian Jews transferred from Birkenau to Dachau for one.
                  Those were part of the Hungarian Jews we accounted for.
                  After all, I would expect the orderly efficient Germans to document the Jews received.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 2:29 pm

                • Why, here is what Gemar Rudolf has to say about this.

                  http://www.heretical.com/miscella/rudolf.html

                  This should make all deniers much more comfortable that I picked Mr. Rudolf to discuss this.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 2:35 pm

                • Frankly, I’m more comfortable with this:

                  http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/topic/1806/Deportations-to-Auschwitz-1942-to-1944-Long-Form

                  It’s a bit lengthy. I skimmed through it.

                  Jeff K.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 2:42 pm

                • Jeff K the camp expert. LMAO. try some original research for a change. you might learn something.

                  Comment by Schlageter — March 14, 2016 @ 10:49 am

                • “Jeff K the camp expert. LMAO. try some original research for a change. you might learn something.”

                  Does original research mean I have to read crappy material written by deniers?
                  No thanks, I’ll pass.
                  Speaking of research by deniers……….

                  I’ll ask you.
                  Where is the proof that instead of murdering the Jews the Nazis evacuated the Jews to the East?
                  Specifically, where exactly were the Jews sent? Where were these camps and who commanded them?
                  Where are the train schedules, numbers, ethnic composition detailed by these camps?
                  Denier mythology places these camps in the USSR.
                  Where is the proof of this?
                  I look forward to your answer.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 11:07 am

                • Jeff ….in the Treblinka book that I’m reading it shows that the majority of the Jews that weren’t used in the camp for work or were too sick to move we’re evacuated East so they eventually ended up in the Russian territories somewhere. That’s my only answer that I can give you because that’s what I’m reading in the book right now and that’s what it’s telling me. The reason why we don’t have the numbers or the names of these people obviously is because when the Russians took over these people’s fate was sealed in their country and they no more had freedom to move around and let people know where they were. So the fact that there are no records that they were moved East does not mean that they weren’t it just means that the Russians close the door on any freedom that these people would have in the future and you would not know anything about it.
                  As far as I can understand the birkenau camp was where the old people the in kids and those who couldn’t work ended up because they couldn’t move out with the rest of the healthier people who headed east.

                  You can read all about this in the Treblinka book which is there with all the Holocaust handbooks.
                  On page 233 of the Treblinka book it shows a lot of information about them being moved Eastwood into the Russian territories. Or at least close to them.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 11:36 am

                • “Jeff ….in the Treblinka book that I’m reading it shows that the majority of the Jews that weren’t used in the camp for work or were too sick to move we’re evacuated East so they eventually ended up in the Russian territories somewhere.”

                  Jim, that’s not an answer. There is a paper trail of transports to Treblinka (and other camps). That’s where it stops.
                  Now, David Cole found some transports, small transports, of male laborers from Poland to Bialystok. These were young, fit males, no women, children or elderly.
                  Large transports of people, including women and children, would leave a record. There is no record of anything like that.
                  You have to build camps, appoint commanders and assign guards. There is nothing like that in the record.
                  The German MILITARY wouldn’t want these camps filled with civilians behind their lines because this is a security risk. This would also interfere with important military operations. Even Hitler wouldn’t allow this type of interference, he wanted to win the war in the East.
                  Now, I can see ghettos set up for local, Soviet Jews. They were valuable labor so you wouldn’t need to deport Jews into the region, that labor force already exists.

                  “That’s my only answer that I can give you because that’s what I’m reading in the book right now and that’s what it’s telling me. The reason why we don’t have the numbers or the names of these people obviously is because when the Russians took over these people’s fate was sealed in their country and they no more had freedom to move around and let people know where they were. So the fact that there are no records that they were moved East does not mean that they weren’t it just means that the Russians close the door on any freedom that these people would have in the future and you would not know anything about it.”

                  Why are there no records of the commanders of these alleged camps? Or guards released from prison camps in 1950? Or 1955?

                  “As far as I can understand the birkenau camp was where the old people the in kids and those who couldn’t work ended up because they couldn’t move out with the rest of the healthier people who headed east.”

                  Again, no proof, no records.

                  “You can read all about this in the Treblinka book which is there with all the Holocaust handbooks.
                  On page 233 of the Treblinka book it shows a lot of information about them being moved Eastwood into the Russian territories. Or at least close to them.”

                  No thanks, Jim.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 11:50 am

                • Comments by Eugene Kulischer from his book the displacement of population in Europe 1943
                  Quote Page 272 Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf: Treblinka from Treblinka book below
                  From his book it just shows that a lot of jewels and it up in the east.

                  JR

                  The ghettos of the General Government or the eastern territories are also
                  the usual destination of the Jews deported from the west by the German au-
                  thorities or by the authorities of other countries allied to Germany.”
                  Finally, Kulischer comes to the subject of the compulsory labor camps. He
                  notes in this regard:814
                  “Up to the summer of 1941, at least 85 Jewish labour camps were
                  known to exist in the General Government. Of the 35 camps the position of
                  which was known, two-thirds were located on the eastern frontier.
                  Forced labour for Jews expanded rapidly, having developed from a
                  subsidiary measure into an essential feature of the treatment of Jews. […]
                  During 1942, forced labour became the common fate of the Jews in Po-
                  land and German-occupied Soviet territory. The period for which Jews fit
                  to work are liable for forced labour is no longer limited. Their removal to
                  the east was largely motivated by the wish to make use of them as forced
                  labour, and as Germany’s need of manpower grew, deportation for adults
                  of working age was tantamount to assignment to forced labour. In contrast
                  with the other inhabitants of German-occupied countries, Jews are not sent
                  to work in the Reich, because Jewish immigration would run counter to the
                  policy of making Germany ‘free of Jews’. The needs of the war economy
                  are, of course, compelling the German authorities to deviate from this rule
                  to some extent, and indeed some exceptions have been reported.[815] But,
                  generally speaking, deportation to the east is for the Jews the equivalent of
                  the recruitment for work in the Reich to which the rest of the population of
                  German-controlled Europe is subject, and their removal further and fur-
                  ther eastward is doubtless connected with the need for supplying the
                  army’s requirements near the front.”
                  The author reckons the number of the “deported and expelled and … oth-
                  erwise displaced” Jews to be 3,150,000, but makes this more precise:816
                  “This does not include: (a) the hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews
                  deported eastward from the General Government, and (b) hundreds of
                  thousands of Jews transferred by compulsion within the limits of the same
                  country or territory to be segregated in ghettos and special Jewish towns, in
                  particular in the General Government and in the German-occupied Eastern
                  Territories. Assuming that only a third of the resident Jews who remained in
                  these territories were affected by (a) and (b), nearly 1,000,000 Jews must
                  have been compulsorily removed eastward or from one town to another.”
                  Nowhere does Kulischer speak of ‘extermination camps’ or of a German
                  policy of the physical extermination of the Jews!

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 12:21 pm

                • “Comments by Eugene Kulischer from his book the displacement of population in Europe 1943”

                  The date of that book is 1943.

                  So, it is useless.

                  Comment by Jeff K — March 14, 2016 @ 12:36 pm

                • Jeff to you the book is useless because you don’t want to accept any information that shows that the Jews were moved Eastward. By 1943 most of the damage was done I would think everything was closing down the camps were closing down and everything else was closing down so I don’t know why you say it’s useless.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 12:42 pm

                • “Jeff to you the book is useless because you don’t want to accept any information that shows that the Jews were moved Eastward. By 1943 most of the damage was done I would think everything was closing down the camps were closing down and everything else was closing down so I don’t know why you say it’s useless.”

                  Jim, I think I made a mistake. Sorry. Let me take a look at the info and get back to you.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 12:55 pm

                • I actually found a copy of the book.

                  Again, my objections are mainly due to the fact that the book was written in 1943 before all available sources were available. The facts of the Holocaust were seeping out but the details were still foggy.

                  The author mentions the deportations East but does not really have anything to say about deportations further East. He thinks this will occur at a later date.

                  He does mention “extermination” but gives no numbers.

                  So, I have issues with the source.

                  Here is a copy of the book.

                  https://archive.org/stream/displacementofpo031323mbp/displacementofpo031323mbp_djvu.txt

                  Try again.

                  Remember, I want schedules, camps, commanders, etc.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 7:49 pm

                • Jimbo or Jeff. Ether one of you men or both,can answer this question. Has nothing to do with the Jews. So we don’t need to worry about a fight breaking out. Who are ( or were) the Kulaks? Evolution of evil show is on. For once their not talking about Uncle Adolph. They’re talking about Stalin. At any rate,Stalin wanted to wipe out the Kulaks. How come the school children ain’t taught this? They’re taught about the Jews,but not the Kulak people. What,are the Jews better than the Kulaks? I don’t think so. Kulaks are human beings too.

                  Comment by Tim — March 15, 2016 @ 2:44 pm

                • “Jimbo or Jeff. Ether one of you men or both,can answer this question. Has nothing to do with the Jews. So we don’t need to worry about a fight breaking out. Who are ( or were) the Kulaks?”

                  The Kulaks were a class of rich peasants in the Soviet Union.
                  From what I can tell the Soviets made up this class, they persecuted the respected village elder, the better off peasants with 5 cows instead of two, that sort of thing.
                  The Soviets persecuted this alleged class in its drive towards collectivization.

                  “Evolution of evil show is on.”

                  I’ve watched that. It seems rather over dramatized.

                  ” How come the school children ain’t taught this?”

                  I don’t know. We could ask the same thing about the Armenian Genocide, the Holdomor in the Ukraine, the Rwandan Genocide, etc.
                  To be honest I don’t have a problem with children learning about the Holocaust in connection with World War II but the intense study of the Holocaust needs to be left at the university level. It needs to be taught in conjunction with the other genocides I talked about.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 2:57 pm

                • Well the way I look at it,Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. History tells us they both wanted to wipe out races. I agree about the part of teaching school kids I guess. There’s so much world history that they have to pick and choose what they feel would benefit the kids. I don’t know if we choose to ignore the stunts Stalin pulled because it would probably confuse the kids. I mean here was this fool who was supposed to be on our side,yet he’s pulling the same shit the nazi party is. I think it makes us look 2 faced as hell. Here we are fighting against oppression with one hand and the other hand we’re giving Papa Joe his “get out of jail free” card.

                  Comment by Tim — March 15, 2016 @ 3:12 pm

                • I wrote the following in a previous blog post way back in 2012:

                  Quote from this old blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/a-quintessential-comment-on-my-blog/

                  One day in 1995, my grandson came home from kindergarten and told the family about what he had learned in school that day: the story of King Christian, who put on a yellow star himself, when the Jews in Denmark were ordered by the Nazis to wear the star. At the age of 5, he knew nothing about the Holocaust nor World War II, yet he had been introduced to a popular legend about the King of Denmark. By the time an American student graduates from High School, he or she has been so indoctrinated with legends and lies about the Holocaust that it is hopeless to try to teach them anything else. My blog is not directed at young people; their minds are closed.
                  End quote

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 16, 2016 @ 6:18 am

          • Jeff K.
            How convenient for your propaganda myth. The conniving Germans, who knew they were going to loose the war, didn’t register or tattoo millions of Jews so that there was no record. There are a few problems with this however. How do you know how many Jews and other groups, as claimed, were gassed without such records? We only have the Hollywood hype of the post war propaganda peddler’s. Where is the Physical evidence? Not one autopsy report of cyanide poisoning. Not one forensic report proving that claimed gas chamber existed. Not one contemporaneous German document even alluding to homicidal gassing or an extermination program.

            Comment by John Mortl — March 13, 2016 @ 3:05 pm

            • Jeff K.
              “How convenient for your propaganda myth. The conniving Germans, who knew they were going to loose the war, didn’t register or tattoo millions of Jews so that there was no record.”

              No, they thought they were going to win.
              Why would the efficient, intelligent Germans register people they were going to kill? That makes no sense.

              “There are a few problems with this however. How do you know how many Jews and other groups, as claimed, were gassed without such records? We only have the Hollywood hype of the post war propaganda peddler’s. Where is the Physical evidence? Not one autopsy report of cyanide poisoning.”

              It’s kinda hard to autopsy ash.

              “Not one forensic report proving that claimed gas chamber existed. Not one contemporaneous German document even alluding to homicidal gassing or an extermination program.”

              Do you really want to do this?

              Why don’t we save each other the trouble of me providing the evidence and you calling it propoganda, lies or forgeries.

              Instead, I’ll let you give me the evidence on where the Jews went if the Nazis didn’t kill them. I’ll accept transport schedules, statements, etc.

              What I’m looking for, specifically, is evidence that Jews were sent into the USSR instead of being executed.
              Now, this is going to be difficult for the Hungarian Jews because the USSR was no longer an option. However, it’s hard to lose some 400,000 Jews. We have accounted for, approximately, 70,000 transferred to other camps. Now that leaves 330,000 Jews not accounted for.
              Find the camps where the majority of those Jews were sent or account for them left at Birkenau.

              I look forward to your results.
              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 3:26 pm

              • Jeff k.
                Typical con man trick! You propound a wild propaganda myth that you can’t produce compelling evidence for, so try to get out of your predicament by asking me to prove that there were no gassings or a an extermination program. The onus is on the accuser to prove their assertion. You say there were gas chambers, prove it? If I were to ask you to prove that there were mounds of ash that would result in your scenario, you would contrive some unsupported claim that the Germans made it magically disappear as you do with all the other evidence you can’t produce. Then if I asked you where’s the order or employment records for the massive manpower required to disperse the ash, you would say something like, they destroyed all the records. When ever the guardians of the hoax are asked for proof for any aspect of the myth there is some lame excuse why they can’t produce it.

                Comment by John Mortl — March 13, 2016 @ 4:35 pm

                • “Typical con man trick! You propound a wild propaganda myth that you can’t produce compelling evidence for, so try to get out of your predicament by asking me to prove that there were no gassings or a an extermination program.”

                  Nothing of the sort.
                  I’m asking you to provide proof that the Germans deported the Jews instead of executing them.
                  Surely 70 years of…..”revisionist…. scholarship” has the answers I’m searching for.
                  After all, the movement of all those Jews to the East left some sort of record, yes?
                  Why would the Germans destroy evidence that would exonerate them? Even if the victors tried to destroy such evidence some would left, yes? There would be camp commanders, guards, transport lists, etc.
                  So, that’s all I want.

                  “The onus is on the accuser to prove their assertion.”

                  If you have an alternate theory than the onus is on you to PROVE IT.
                  No gas chambers?
                  Fine.
                  Where did the Germans send the Jews?

                  “You say there were gas chambers, prove it? If I were to ask you to prove that there were mounds of ash that would result in your scenario, you would contrive some unsupported claim that the Germans made it magically disappear as you do with all the other evidence you can’t produce. Then if I asked you where’s the order or employment records for the massive manpower required to disperse the ash, you would say something like, they destroyed all the records. When ever the guardians of the hoax are asked for proof for any aspect of the myth there is some lame excuse why they can’t produce it.”

                  I’m tired of producing records. I’m done with show and tell.
                  Now it’s your turn.
                  Produce the records proving the Germans sent the Jews into the East.
                  Or, admit you have nothing and this theory is wrong.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 5:00 pm

      • You wrote:”their heads are shaved to present lice.” No, their heads were shaved to get rid of any lice that they might have brought into the camp. The Nazis didn’t want these women to cause a typhus epidemic in the camp, with lice that they might have had in their hair when they arrived. They wanted to gas the Jews, not have them die of typhus.

        Comment by furtherglory — March 13, 2016 @ 1:12 pm

        • You wrote:”their heads are shaved to present lice.” “No, their heads were shaved to get rid of any lice that they might have brought into the camp.”

          Ok. Either way it was done to prevent epidemics.
          I just noticed that my comment said “present” when I meant to say “prevent.” Autocorrect is a pain.

          “The Nazis didn’t want these women to cause a typhus epidemic in the camp, with lice that they might have had in their hair when they arrived. They wanted to gas the Jews, not have them die of typhus.”

          Any epidemics that affected the Jews affected the Germans, the Poles, etc. The Germans suffered from these epidemics the same way the inmates did.

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 1:29 pm

      • Yes you are right. They came into the camp had to take of their dirty lice infected clothes, which went into the small disinfection chambers to kill the lice using life saving Ziklon-B. Then had their lice infected heads shaved and went through the shower to clean off the the grime and lice on their bodies, as did every new camp entrant. Then they were given clean clothes to ware. This whole procedure was to save lives by preventing the spread of Typhus carrying lice. As should be obvious by now, Ziklon-B was used to save lives and not as the propaganda hoaxers would have you blindly believe.

        Comment by John Mortl — March 13, 2016 @ 2:36 pm

        • “Yes you are right. They came into the camp had to take of their dirty lice infected clothes, which went into the small disinfection chambers to kill the lice using life saving Ziklon-B. Then had their lice infected heads shaved and went through the shower to clean off the the grime and lice on their bodies, as did every new camp entrant.”

          Are you saying they were naturally dirty and lice infested?

          “Then they were given clean clothes to ware.”

          Uh, oh. You misspelled a word. Eah is going to have a major shit fit because misspelled words and grammar mistakes make the OCD reduce eah into a quivering mess.

          “This whole procedure was to save lives by preventing the spread of Typhus carrying lice. As should be obvious by now, Ziklon-B was used to save lives and not as the propaganda hoaxers would have you blindly believe.”

          Well, some of it, yes. Probably the majority because it takes less Zyclon B to kill humans than insects.

          While we are corresponding I’m going to ask you just like I ask all deniers.

          If the idea was to transport Jews to the East and not exterminate them, where did the transports go?
          For example, common denier mythology claims that the Operation Reinhard Camps were transit camps sending the Jews to some sort of camp system or homeland into the USSR.
          Where were these camps? Who commanded them? Are there witnesses, guards, inmates or bystanders who can attest to these camps? Are there train schedules for transports or supply trains to these camps? What were the ethnic composition of these camps?

          I look forward to your reply.
          Jeff

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 3:12 pm

          • Jeff K.
            Once again you are trying to reverse the onus, which is really on those that make these fantastic assertions. But you can’t do that can you? Thats why you will do anything to avoid dealing with providing straight forward evidence for your unsubstantiated assertions. Put up or shut up.

            Comment by John Mortl — March 13, 2016 @ 4:50 pm

            • “Once again you are trying to reverse the onus, which is really on those that make these fantastic assertions.

              The onus is equally on you to prove the theory that the Jews were evacuated to the East.

              “But you can’t do that can you? Thats why you will do anything to avoid dealing with providing straight forward evidence for your unsubstantiated assertions. Put up or shut up.”

              I’ve said I’m done playing show and tell on my end.
              But, I’ll tell you what. I’ll provide my evidence, AGAIN and when I’m done you’ll provide your evidence that the Jews were evacuated to the East.

              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 5:22 pm

              • Jeff K.
                OK, Just so we aren’t subjected to the usual slight of hand, Compelling evidence is not conveniently remembered anecdotal hearsay twenty or more years after the alleged event, but contemporaneous German documentation laying out in unambiguously detail the alleged extermination program. I emphasize, not the usual claim that euphemisms were used unless you have compelling evidence, not hearsay claims of such, that prove euphemisms were used. I have had people claim, without corroboration, that euphemisms were used in a top secret meeting. How ridiculous can you get. Or, forensic evidence proving the existence of gas chambers that has been vetted by all sides of the dispute in a open public forum. I think this may have eliminated the usual contrivances to evade what should be straight forward evidence.

                Comment by John Mortl — March 13, 2016 @ 8:21 pm

            • http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/topic/1894

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 5:27 pm

              • Hey I went to that link. The whole thing is in German . Is there a site somewhere that has that report in English ?

                Comment by Tim — March 13, 2016 @ 6:31 pm

                • Keep scrolling down, it’s translated.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 6:39 pm

                • My bad. Thanks

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 8:47 am

                • No problem.
                  I had a bad moment when I found it, I am familiar with the person who posted it so I thought he would provide a translation.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 9:03 am

              • This Polish forensic report is not very convincing I’m afraid. We can forget the tests of the alleged human hair, because even if some of it survived the explosions at Krema 2, it would be practically useless for chemical analysis.

                The six metal ( or zinc ) plates which are said to come from some ventilation apertures in corpse cellar No.1 are suspicious. The report says that only two of them were damaged and the other four intact. Which is a strange ratio considering the massive explosions which must have taken place.

                Then there is the question of whether these ventilation apertures are the same holes in the roof as the alleged vents for pouring in the Zyklon B pellets. There is no clarification of this.

                The forensic scientist at the Krakow laboratory carried out two tests on these plates, but only one test proved positive for Prussic Acid. The other test came up with a chemical called Rhodanide, which doesn’t seem to have any connection with the former.

                The Report’s conclusion is very paltry. It just says “Both experiments described above prove that the examination material contained connections of prussic acid “. The trouble is, it doesn’t say the quantities of Prussic Acid discovered on the plates. And this is really the key question, because the Germans were using Zyklon B extensively around the Birkenau camp, and its quite possible they fumigated corpse cellar No.1 with Zyklon B from time to time, and thus traces of this chemical might still be present on these ventilation plates.

                Comment by Talbot — March 14, 2016 @ 8:26 am

                • “This Polish forensic report is not very convincing I’m afraid. We can forget the tests of the alleged human hair, because even if some of it survived the explosions at Krema 2, it would be practically useless for chemical analysis.”

                  The Talbot method:
                  Anything that disagrees with denier mythology can be tossed.

                  “The six metal ( or zinc ) plates which are said to come from some ventilation apertures in corpse cellar No.1 are suspicious. The report says that only two of them were damaged and the other four intact. Which is a strange ratio considering the massive explosions which must have taken place.”

                  Depending on how the charges were set can determine what happens.
                  Also, the ventilation apertures look pretty protected to me. See the documentary:
                  Auschwitz: Blue Prints of Genocide.

                  “Then there is the question of whether these ventilation apertures are the same holes in the roof as the alleged vents for pouring in the Zyklon B pellets. There is no clarification of this.”

                  Uh, no.
                  The ventilation apertures are clearly different.

                  “The forensic scientist at the Krakow laboratory carried out two tests on these plates, but only one test proved positive for Prussic Acid. The other test came up with a chemical called Rhodanide, which doesn’t seem to have any connection with the former.”

                  They still found Prussic Acid.

                  “The Report’s conclusion is very paltry. It just says “Both experiments described above prove that the examination material contained connections of prussic acid “. The trouble is, it doesn’t say the quantities of Prussic Acid discovered on the plates. And this is really the key question, because the Germans were using Zyklon B extensively around the Birkenau camp, and its quite possible they fumigated corpse cellar No.1 with Zyklon B from time to time, and thus traces of this chemical might still be present on these ventilation plates.”

                  Yet, somehow, Polish tests on barracks fumigated by Zyclon B found no evidence of cyanide.

                  I will agree that evidence collection was paltry. This was 1940’s Poland, not 2016 London. The results proved the existence of cyanide, this collaborated witness and perpetrator testimony so there appears no additional evidence was collected.
                  This is a shame because it allowed the growth of the mythology that the Holocaust was a hoax.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 8:40 am

              • “Also, the ventilation apertures look pretty protected to me. See the documentary: Auschwitz: Blue Prints of Genocide.”

                Yes I did – and what a hoot it was!. There we saw our Holocaust Hero – the legendary architect Mr Robert Van Pelt himself – poring over the blueprints of Krema 2, and pointing out the ventilation system in the alleged gas chamber. The trouble was, this system was at floor level inside the chamber, but at least six feet underground outside. And thus, when we next viewed our hero, he was crouching down on the grass outside, pointing out the outlet aperture to this ventilation system.

                But oh dear! We have always been led to believe that Zyklon B was a very poisonous chemical and needed to be evacuated through a reasonably long chimney stack rising up above the roof. If one released the gas at ground level then there is the very real danger that large numbers of friend or foe could be effected by escaping gas. Therefore, the SS technicians, designers and architects would not have built a ventilation system like this – it is asinine.

                No – what Mr Van Pelt is pointing out to us, is a perfectly normal ventilation system for simply circulating air around a morgue or cellar for storing bodies waiting to be cremated.

                Comment by Talbot — March 14, 2016 @ 10:23 am

                • “Yes I did – and what a hoot it was!. There we saw our Holocaust Hero – the legendary architect Mr Robert Van Pelt himself – poring over the blueprints of Krema 2, and pointing out the ventilation system in the alleged gas chamber. The trouble was, this system was at floor level inside the chamber, but at least six feet underground outside. And thus, when we next viewed our hero, he was crouching down on the grass outside, pointing out the outlet aperture to this ventilation system.”

                  Yup, it was. Do you think that ventilation systems for morgues can’t be used for other purposes?

                  “But oh dear! We have always been led to believe that Zyklon B was a very poisonous chemical and needed to be evacuated through a reasonably long chimney stack rising up above the roof. If one released the gas at ground level then there is the very real danger that large numbers of friend or foe could be effected by escaping gas. Therefore, the SS technicians, designers and architects would not have built a ventilation system like this – it is asinine.”

                  The above is a picture of a delousing building.
                  Funny, I don’t see a high chimney to vent Zyclon B after delousing.
                  Holy crap!!! The Germans really screwed up!!!!! I wonder how many people died when the delousing was done?!?!?!?!
                  A question:
                  If I fumigated a building, ship or orchard with Zyclon B, does that mean I had to build a chimney over each building, ship or TREE to safely vent the cyanide?

                  “No – what Mr Van Pelt is pointing out to us, is a perfectly normal ventilation system for simply circulating air around a morgue or cellar for storing bodies waiting to be cremated.”

                  Which can also be used to vent cyanide from a room.
                  Talbot, your inner Leuchter is showing.

                  Leuchter’s mistake was equating the safety measures used by execution chambers in the United States with the gas chambers built by the Nazis. The gas chambers in the United States are custom built to execute one prisoner at a time. They have tall chimneys to ventilate those chambers.
                  The chambers the Nazis built were not custom, they used rooms designed as morgues but altered to use as gas chambers.
                  The ventilators used to vent morgues can also vent cyanide.
                  Cyanide dissipates rapidly in the open air, concentration levels rapidly dissipating to a safe level. While standing in front of these ventilators was dangerous but it’s rather easy to make sure no important personnel was not there when the chambers were ventilated.
                  Does the word “move” not exist in German?

                  Zyclon B was a common pesticide used to fumigate buildings, ships, homes, ORCHARDS, etc.
                  While dangerous it can be safely used by people who know what they are doing.
                  The common method of airing out homes, offices, etc. after using Zyclon B as a fumigate?

                  OPENING DOORS AND WINDOWS.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 10:58 am

                • In regards to the airing out of the so-called gas Chambers in Krema 1. I wouldn’t say there was not a lot of airing out space in the building considering that it was an all concrete building. Still it would think it would think a few hours or longer to do this I thought I read in one of the pro Holocaust information that it actually took a few days to air out places where gas was used. So to get the high number of deaths that they are talking about which were around 3,000 or 4,000 a day every single day I would think the earring out of these buildings would have taken too much time to reach those death levels.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 11:07 am

                • Back when Mississippi still used the gas chamber for execution,cleaning it out before anyone could enter safely,was a chore. It was aired out first. After that a couple corrections officers moved in to clean it out. They pretty much wore biohazard suits. They each had their own oxygen supply. They had to hose the place down to get any residue out. It wasn’t something that could be done in a few minutes. The people that cleared the bodies out of the gas house for Jews , would have to take the same precautions. That’s gonna slow down production time. So when they talk about the high amount of people they can clear in a day,I have to think those numbers are a bit high

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 11:41 am

                • The image you showed us clearly indicates a stack and sizeable vents built on top of the roof, which the Germans thought was perfectly adequate for normal fumigation purposes. They simply would not have had ground level ventilation for homicidal gas chambers.

                  But even then, Robert Van Pelt didn’t explain to us viewers if there were extractor fans and pumps to swiftly and efficiently evacuate all the gas from the chamber. If there was such equipment, then where was it placed – inside the gas chamber itself?; within the flue ducts that lie underground?; or was it somehow attached to the outlet apertures, that we saw at ground level outside the building?

                  Comment by Talbot — March 14, 2016 @ 11:44 am

                • “The image you showed us clearly indicates a stack and sizeable vents built on top of the roof, which the Germans thought was perfectly adequate for normal fumigation purposes. They simply would not have had ground level ventilation for homicidal gas chambers.”

                  But wait, I thought you needed a tall chimney to safely extract the highly deadly, toxic, explosive, perhaps even radioactive, cyanide from buildings??? You know, the fumes that could kill hospital personnel across the road? Or seep through the entire camp, killing everyone within a two mile radius???
                  😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄
                  Sorry, Talbot. I’m feeling whimsical today.

                  “But even then, Robert Van Pelt didn’t explain to us viewers if there were extractor fans and pumps to swiftly and efficiently evacuate all the gas from the chamber. If there was such equipment, then where was it placed – inside the gas chamber itself?; within the flue ducts that lie underground?; or was it somehow attached to the outlet apertures, that we saw at ground level outside the building?”

                  Excellent questions.
                  I know you are frantically grasping at any type of questions to prevent the whole denier mythology from blowing up on you.
                  Perhaps you can write to Van Pelt or e-mail him and get the answers to your questions.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 12:03 pm

                • Tim writes;- ” They had to hose the place down to get any residue out. It wasn’t something that could be done in a few minutes. ”

                  Yes, I would imagine they would have to hose down the gas chambers at Birkenau while they were still full of dead bodies – not only to help clear the residues of Zyklon B, but also to wash away most of the bodily discharges from up to 2,000 corpses before the sondercommandos began to drag them out of the chamber. Then, after it was empty, the chamber would need another hosing down to make it at least believable as a shower room for the next batch of victims. After that, there is the problem of how this water – contaminated with Zyklon B poison – is drained out of the chamber. A drain in the floor is the obvious answer, but the chamber was largely built underground, and thus some pumps would be required to lift the water upwards to ground level, in order for it to pour away into the “Konigsgraben” ditch – which carried all Birkenau’s treated waste water away into the River Wisla.

                  Comment by Talbot — March 14, 2016 @ 12:18 pm

                • “But oh dear! We have always been led to believe that Zyklon B was a very poisonous chemical and needed to be evacuated through a reasonably long chimney stack rising up above the roof. If one released the gas at ground level then there is the very real danger that large numbers of friend or foe could be effected by escaping gas. Therefore, the SS technicians, designers and architects would not have built a ventilation system like this – it is asinine”

                  Talbot, the German word for move is “bewegung.”

                  Now, I’m using a modern translation.
                  In the 40’s it may have meant something like, “Stand there and be gassed.”

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 4:09 am

                • I can’t see any problem with the German word “bewegung”, nor your translation of it as meaning “stand and be gassed”. The Germans were carrying out regular fumigations on inmates, and so they would be told to stand still with their arms in the air in order to be fumigated (i.e:- “gassed”)

                  And some of the poor old “survivors”, upon hearing after WW2 was over, that the Nazis had been exterminating people by gassing, had looked back to their own fumigation process in the camps and imagined that they too had been gassed. They couldn’t quite understand how they had survived and thus came to the conclusion that they had been saved by a miracle!

                  But returning to these curious zinc plates that the Polish forensic report mentions as having traces of prussic acid, I note that the apertures of the ventilation system pointed out by Robert Van Pelt do not have any fittings in which to attach these plates to. So once again, we see the questions building up about how these alleged “homicidal gas chambers” actually functioned.

                  Comment by Talbot — March 15, 2016 @ 9:36 am

                • Talbot….Quote…And some of the poor old “survivors”, upon hearing after WW2 was over, that the Nazis had been exterminating people by gassing, had looked back to their own fumigation process in the camps and imagined that they too had been gassed. They couldn’t quite understand how they had survived and thus came to the conclusion that they had been saved by a miracle!

                  Exactly! The mind can do some curious tricks with information that you process over the years. Most of the Jews likely experienced what you said there. Also those that were sick probably hallucinated and actually thought they were being killed when they took showers and were bodily fumigated, but again this was all part of their bad dreams. There have been writings about this which I will check out even more….It’s called false memory syndrome….

                  Something about it here….

                  A recent book entitled ” a Holocaust fraud” by Jewish author Calev Ben-David shed some light on the inner workings of claims made by Holocaust ” survivors” and the treatment of such claims by the media.In 1995, a Holocaust memoir entitled Fragments, written by Binjamin Wilkomirski, was published in Switzerland . It told of the author’s childhood experiences growing up in the Riga ghetto, his alleged deportation to Auschwitz, his experience in a Cracow orphanage after the war, and his eventual adoption by the Swiss family that raised him. The book received effusive critical praise. The Guardian newspaper called it “one of the great works about the Holocaust” and a the US magazine The Nation said: “This stunning and austerely written work is so profoundly moving, so morally important, and so free from literary artifice of any kind at all that I wonder if I even have the right to try to offer praise.” “Fragments” won the National Jewish Book award, and Wilkomirski became a celebrity-survivor, giving readings and lectures across the world, becoming ( very) rich in the process.

                  In 1998, Jewish author, Daniel Ganzfried wrote an article which charged that Wilkomirski, far from being a Holocaust survivor, was a native-born, non-Jewish Swiss citizen named Bruno Grosjean, who had invented the story of his childhood in war-time East Europe and the camps. Wilkomirski denied the accusation But as journalists began to poke into the story, the truth of Ganzfried’s charges – and the lies in Fragments – looked more and more evident, and calls were made for the book to be pulled out , or at least relabelled as fiction. The publishers hired a Jewish historian, Dr. Maechler, to investigate . The result, together with the text of Fragments, is now being put out by the same companies that published Wilkomirski’s text in the first place. Maechler makes it clear that Wilkomirski-Grosjean made up absolutely everything in Fragments connected with the Holocaust

                  The height of the scam , reports Maechler, came when Wilkomirski addressed a meeting of the Holocaust Survivors Group of Los Angeles, and was embraced there by a woman in tears named Laura Grabowski, who claimed to remember him from the camps. It later turned out that she was actually a non-Jewish, US-born woman named Lauren Stratford, who had falsely accepted Holocaust reparations ( reportedly in excess of a million dollars) and had also previously claimed to be the childhood victim of ritual abuse by Satanic cults. Like all adherents of the so-called “recovered memory” movement in the US, Wilkomirski is diagnosed by Maechler to be a psychologically disturbed individual, who totally created, based on books and movies he was exposed to, and then accepted as truth, his fake Holocaust-survivor identity. To this day, even when confronted with absolute proof of his lies, Wilkomirski refuses to admit his scam, a good indication of mental disease. Even worse, some of his Jewish admirers refuse to back down from their position – and claim that to now attack the author and his work is to be, what else, an anti-Semite.

                  What is unbelievable about the whole scam is why a slim, vague and poorly documented work received such acclaim. The answer, of course, is because it deals with the Holocaust.
                  . Maechler himself, at the end of his report, writes: “The rise and fall of the figure of Binjamin Wilkomirski reveals more than just the mechanisms that are now part of the Shoah and its remembrance, and it would be wrong to discuss the phenomenon only within that framework.”

                  I am interested here in the actual relationship between ” recovered memories” and so-called Holocaust survivors.In the 1980s the recovered memory or false memory syndrome (as the vast majority of researchers now call it) exploded onto the American media scene with a vengeance. Many people were sent to prison based entirely on memories of abuse, much of it centered around widespread Satanic cult conspiracies, that they claimed they repressed as children but were able to “recover” as adults with help from therapists ( usually aided with hypnosis and barbiturates ). Sexual abuse books like Courage to Heal went so far as to suggest that most mental diseases in women, from low self esteem to to depression, were caused by repressed memories of sexual abuse. The recovered memory movement’s excesses led to its downfall. Although many people believed the claims of Satanic conspiracies and repeated that victims could never be doubted, the claims made by recovered memory therapists and patients became so outageous and bizarre that all but the true believers began to wonder if something else might be going on.

                  Elizabeth Loftus, an expert in memory who did well known studies on the fallibility of eye witness accounts of crimeby demonstrated that it was relatively easy to implant false memories into experimental subjects. By the mid-1990s recovered memory therapy was viewed as a fraud. Some recovered memory therapists found themselves on the short end of civil lawsuits brought by their patients and/or people they had help put in jail.On 1998-FEB-12, a letter by Dr. H. Merskey was published in the Toronto Globe and Mail. Dr. Merskey is Canada’s leading expert in the field of recovered memories. He commented: the term “delayed memory” is a new euphemism for “recovered memory” “There is no scientific reason to accept that truly recovered memories have ever been properly corroborated. The few cases for which vociferous claims are made, all have problems.”

                  Merskey goes on to say “”, “But even something that’s implausible can be infused with plausibility. It’s a two-stage process. First you increase the plausibility of an event and then suggest it happened to the subject. It mimics the kind of thing that happens in a physician’s office. It’s like getting an X-ray and having the doctor tell you that you have pneumonia. But in this case, low self-esteem and depression means you were abused as a child. It’s an analog for that kind of situation. … This shows why people watching ‘Oprah’ or those in group therapy believe these kinds of things happened to them. People borrow memories from others and adopt them as their own experiences. It’s part of the normal process of memory.” Most courts have already started rejecting recovered memories as reliable for testimony.

                  What, therefore, is the link between Holocaust survivors and false recovered memories? It is well known that many guest speakers talking to seniors who were displaced by the war in the 40s, strongly use elements borrowed from the technique used by therapists in eliciting ” fake memories”. As an example, the keynote speaker at a recent Holocaust remembrance reunion was none other than Marjorie Agosin, a so-called ” daughter of holocaust survivors”. I include here the title of the presentation:

                  “Marjorie Agosin (Chilean Poet, Daughter of Holocaust Survivors)– Second Generation: Creating Borrowed and Recovered Memory”
                  With other guest Speaker: DR. MARGARET ROMAN, English Dept.
                  Location: Santa Maria Hall, Room 24, 9:30-10:45a.m.

                  During the show trial of John Demjanuk in Israel , thousands of Israelis presented an affidavit to the courts , wanting to appear as witnesses, claiming to have been tortured, raped by the accused. The vast majority of these claims were found to be based on no credible facts. The few witnesses who gave testimony were vague, imprecise about the details and so forth. One thing they were certain, the accused was guilty. A verdict of not guilty shows how credible these claims were.

                  Are Holocaust survivors really a group of seniors, who traumatized by being in a high stress war situation for years , who are evoking false memories based on highly suggestive and manipulative texts, images and speeches presented on a rolling fashion by scores of high-profile authors, filmmakers, and the such ? I believe such a theory deserves to be closely investigated.

                  References:
                  P.L. Herndon, “False and Repressed Memories gain Media Spotlight”, Practitioner Focus, newsletter of the American Psychological Association, 1994-FEB; P. 3, 15
                  Kirk Makin, “McLellan to look into recovered-memory debate,”, The Globe and Mail, Toronto, ON, 1998-MAY-20, Page A3
                  A. Piper, “Multiple Personality Disorder: Witchcraft Survives in the Twentieth Century,” The Skeptical Inquirer, 1998-MAY/JUN, Pages 44 – 50
                  PBS TV program, “Searching for Satan,” Frontline, 1995-OCT-24.
                  Pamela Freyd, FMS Foundation Newsletter, 1998-DEC, Vol 7, #10.
                  tinsoldier is offline

                  Jim Rizoli

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 15, 2016 @ 9:50 am

                • “I can’t see any problem with the German word “bewegung”, nor your translation of it as meaning “stand and be gassed”. ”

                  What I meant was, “move or be gassed.”

                  The Germans were carrying out regular fumigations on inmates, and so they would be told to stand still with their arms in the air in order to be fumigated (i.e:- “gassed”)”

                  Um, fumigated with what?
                  The Germans used a liquid delouser.
                  The Americans used DDT.

                  “And some of the poor old “survivors”, upon hearing after WW2 was over, that the Nazis had been exterminating people by gassing, had looked back to their own fumigation process in the camps and imagined that they too had been gassed.”

                  There is big difference in someone spraying you and someone gassing you.
                  Do you actually have any real proof of this?

                  “They couldn’t quite understand how they had survived and thus came to the conclusion that they had been saved by a miracle!”

                  Are you making one of your jokes again? Because that’s what it sounds like.

                  “But returning to these curious zinc plates that the Polish forensic report mentions as having traces of prussic acid, I note that the apertures of the ventilation system pointed out by Robert Van Pelt do not have any fittings in which to attach these plates to.”

                  It’s likely they were from the inside.

                  “So once again, we see the questions building up about how these alleged “homicidal gas chambers” actually functioned.”

                  In denier minds, sure. For normal people, not so much.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 11:29 am

                • Jeff and all those who want to believe in miracles…..As I’ve said before and is worth repeating…..How you say the Jews died by what method is one thing to verity the unbelievable numbers of deaths and cremations is another. You are now entering in the realm of impossibilities and fantasy. I mean really now….Kurt Gerstein said 40,000 people per DAY, were killed then lowered it considerably to 10,000 or so
                  and others have done so also. These figures are just picked out of the air and couldn’t not be duplicated today even under the best circumstances. Please show me the wood piles at Treblinka, the coal reserves in Auschwitz? Where are the trucks shown on aerial photos transporting and emptying their loads. Where are the lines and lines of people standing outside in blazing heat and subzero cold?
                  Nothing! Where are the ash heaps being carted away by the trucks to be dumped on the roads? Noe of this exist through “eyewitness” testimony yet you want us to believe it. This is all based on fantasy you know it and they know it but none wants to talk about it.
                  You have a story to tell but none of it makes sense….but you still stand by it…..then you throw it in our face that if they weren’t killed then where did they go? They were moved eastward to territory beyond not much else I can say about it.

                  The HoloHoax is a scam and continues on……..and you either believe it or not based on reality of it happening according to scientific principles or bad dreams.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 15, 2016 @ 11:56 am

                • “You have a story to tell but none of it makes sense….but you still stand by it…..then you throw it in our face that if they weren’t killed then where did they go? They were moved eastward to territory beyond not much else I can say about it.”

                  Here’s how you can debunk the Holocaust:

                  Prove where the Jews went during the war.
                  That’ll blow the whole thing open.

                  If you can’t than you have to drop the whole “transported to the East” theory once and for all.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 12:02 pm

                • I can’t see any problem with the German word “bewegung”, nor your translation of it as meaning “stand and be gassed”. “The Germans were carrying out regular fumigations on inmates, and so they would be told to stand still with their arms in the air in order to be fumigated (i.e:- “gassed)”

                  As a follow up, I’ve looked around a little bit. The concentration camps did not use DDT or an equivalent powder or gas. Inmates spoke of a disinfection “fluid” that I cannot find the name of.
                  I don’t think anyone would mistake a fluid for a gas, especially since one makes you wet.
                  It’s possible that the Nazis used a powder but I cannot find it anywhere.
                  You certainly couldn’t have people stand in a room just to disinfect them if you used Zyclon B, that was used for clothing and buildings.
                  So, I find you explanation of “gassing” implausible. The Germans did not use DDT or a powder equivalent (at least, none that I can find).

                  See, I tried to help you out. It was a somewhat plausible explanation but I don’t see where the Nazis used a powder to disinfect prisoners, they apparently used a liquid.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 1:42 pm

                • You wrote that “The Germans did not use DDT…”

                  That is correct. I mentioned this on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/how-many-jews-were-slaughtered-in-the-dachau-death-camp/

                  On the blog post cited above, I included a photo of a Dachau inmate being sprayed with DDT. The Germans had already discovered that DDT was harmful to the environment, so that is why they didn’t use it. It was used at Dachau by the Americans who took over the camp.

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 15, 2016 @ 2:02 pm

                • You wrote: “The concentration camps did not use DDT or an equivalent powder or gas. Inmates spoke of a disinfection “fluid” that I cannot find the name of.”

                  I wrote about disinfection in the camps on these two blog posts:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/disinfection-chamber/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 15, 2016 @ 2:14 pm

                • jrizoli – thanks for producing that interesting contribution. So, studies have been done into this concept of “false memory syndrome”. And personally, I think a lot of this has been going on regards the holocaust. These “survivors” are by no means all fantasists and story-tellers, but have been led by the “holocaust industry” and the mass media over the decades to construct within their minds a very exaggerated – and sometimes totally different – version of reality than what really happened.

                  Wolf Murmelsteine, on this website, often tell us that we must not question any of these “survivors”, but listen carefully to what they have to say, in order that such a calamity can never happen again. But if “false memory syndrome” is a major factor in shaping people’s accounts of what happened 70 years ago, then it is absolutely imperative that we do question everything that we have been told about the holocaust.

                  Comment by Talbot — March 15, 2016 @ 11:39 am

                • Jeff says;- “It’s likely they were from the inside”.

                  Have you got any proof of this?

                  And if they were inside, how were they operated to get them to open and close?

                  Comment by Talbot — March 15, 2016 @ 11:44 am

                • Contact Van Pelt and ask him.
                  I’m sure he’ll be happy to correspond with you.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 11:59 am

                • No Jeff – it is incumbent upon you to contact Robert Van Pelt to provide us with the answers. Or better still, consult the “Holocaust Controversies” website to find out the information.

                  To be perfectly honest – I’m fed up to the back teeth with being offered half-baked explanations – or even no evidence at all – to explain this alleged genocide during WW2.

                  Comment by Talbot — March 15, 2016 @ 12:20 pm

                • Nope, I’m not the one questioning it.
                  You can do it if you have questions.

                  Sorry you feel this is half-baked.
                  I feel the same way about Holocaust denial.

                  To me it’s all racist with a healthy dose of Hitler hero worship, junk science and lots of screams about lies, forgeries and torture.

                  And no one can tell me where the Jews went if they didn’t die.

                  Maybe they all climbed on top of the really tall chimneys needed to safely vent Zyclon B and flew away.

                  Because, according to Leuchter, to make it safe, that’s what was needed.
                  Never mind that Zyclon B was a common pesticide used to fumigate orchards.
                  Did all those trees need chimneys?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 12:30 pm

                • You wrote: “And no one can tell me where the Jews went if they didn’t die.”

                  No one can tell you because you are not talking to the right persons. I have written several blog posts about the Jews who came back after they were allegedly killed in the Holocaust:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/holocaust-survivors/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 15, 2016 @ 1:47 pm

            • http://remember.org/docss.html

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 5:52 pm

            • http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocGasVn.htm

              I’m done, for the moment.

              Your turn, Mr. Mortl.
              I want proof that the Jews were evacuated to the East and not murdered.

              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 5:58 pm

              • Jeff k.
                Very clever. When cornered snow them with mounds of verbiage in the hope that they lost in all the irrelevancy. You have just demonstrated why I had all those qualifications in my request for evidence. Evidently you think that you managed to get around them. Well your ploy failed, unless you can to be more specific as to where the qualified proof I asked for is. It’s not up to you what will convince me. I was quite specific what evidence was required. You can’t dazzle me with fancy foot work.

                Comment by John Mortl — March 14, 2016 @ 4:23 am

                • “Very clever. When cornered snow them with mounds of verbiage in the hope that they lost in all the irrelevancy. You have just demonstrated why I had all those qualifications in my request for evidence. Evidently you think that you managed to get around them. Well your ploy failed, unless you can to be more specific as to where the qualified proof I asked for is. It’s not up to you what will convince me. I was quite specific what evidence was required. You can’t dazzle me with fancy foot work.”

                  I’m going to come to the conclusion that you have nothing to back up the prevailing denier mythology that the Jews were sent East instead of dying.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 7:29 am

              • Jeff k.
                You either don’t understand the concept of reverse onus or you can’t back up your hate propaganda. On the off chance that it’s the former I will try to explain how ridiculous your feeble attempt to reverse the onus of providing proof is. Suppose that you went on Dragons Den requesting financial backing for a business and they asked you to give them some compelling reasons why they should invest in your project. You then said to them, I don,t have to give you any reasons, you have to give me reasons why you don’t have to invest. Do you now see how ridiculous your stance is, or should I give you another example?

                Comment by John Mortl — March 15, 2016 @ 3:59 am

  11. The picture Jews waiting in line to be gassed at Auschwitz you must be referring to laughing gas.

    JR

    Comment by jrizoli — March 13, 2016 @ 11:00 am

    • jriy Go to hell; you never miss an opportunity to show lack of manners or human feeling for pain passed through,

      Comment by Wolf Murmelsteine — March 13, 2016 @ 12:10 pm

      • Wolf… lack of manners has nothing to do with what the truth is.
        If you want to continue the lie that people were gassed in any of these buildings then you’re most welcome to do it.
        Pretty sad when people take pictures out of context and write whatever they want underneath it.
        But then again isn’t that the way the whole Holocaust hoax is.

        JR

        Comment by jrizoli — March 13, 2016 @ 12:21 pm

        • Edit:
          I said live, meant lice.
          Autocorrect.

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 12:59 pm

        • Hey. Glad you mentioned pictures. When ever someone mentions pictures,I always think of the pic of that lil boy with his hands up and the Kraut soldier behind him holding the MP 40. Don’t look like the soldier is pointing the gun at the kid at all. Looks like the gun is aiming more toward the ground than anything. However people will still swear up and down the Kraut had the gun drawn on the kid and was gettin ready to shoot him

          Comment by Tim — March 13, 2016 @ 1:54 pm

    • Jim, these women were selected for labor, not execution.
      All of their clothes are the same, the prison uniform. Their hair is shorn to prevent live.
      Jeff

      Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 12:29 pm

      • Jeff it all depends what camp they were in. If they were in Berkinau most of the people there didn’t work in the factories these were women, children or sickly. You know all the people that was supposedly exterminated yet ended up in the barracks surviving. Those horrible Germans imagine letting these people live. If they only knew what they would grow up to be.

        JR

        Comment by jrizoli — March 13, 2016 @ 12:55 pm

        • “Jeff it all depends what camp they were in. If they were in Berkinau most of the people there didn’t work in the factories these were women, children or sickly. You know all the people that was supposedly exterminated yet ended up in the barracks surviving. Those horrible Germans imagine letting these people live. If they only knew what they would grow up to be.”

          Why in the world would the Germans deport the sick, the elderly, women and children?
          That’s just a drag on the camp’s resources.

          Jeff

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 12:58 pm

          • That’s the point the fact that the Germans let these people stay there and did not harm them was a drag to their resources but they did they let him stay they didn’t kill him and most of them survived and walked home later. I think looking back the Germans would have thought differently about how they handle this I don’t think they really know you how many people would not be willing or ready to work for them.
            It would seem to me if they knew that they probably would have left them where they were in the ghettos or just deported them all from the country.
            A lot of time and effort and energy was spent on keeping these people alive they have no clue.
            And how did the Jews thank them by filing false charges against them that they were being gassed and shot and killed in all the camps when in reality they were treated pretty well considering that if they were on the outside they would have been probably killed by the allied bombings.
            The best thing to happen to the Jews was to be put t in those camps they were fed they were clothed they had a place to sleep and so what was the complained….they shaved our heads and we had a work well some of them anyway.

            JR

            Comment by jrizoli — March 13, 2016 @ 1:04 pm

            • “That’s the point the fact that the Germans let these people stay there and did not harm them was a drag to their resources but they did they let him stay they didn’t kill him and most of them survived and walked home later.”

              Jim, that is completely ridiculous.
              Most of these people committed no crimes. How can you possibly justify incarcerating the elderly, women and children, whose only “crime” was being Jewish?
              The Germans forced millions of Poles out of the areas they annexed but didn’t put them in camps. They made no provision for their welfare-many died of starvation or exposure-but they didn’t put them in camps.

              “I think looking back the Germans would have thought differently about how they handle this I don’t think they really know you how many people would not be willing or ready to work for them.”

              Wait, you mean the efficient, orderly, intelligent Germans didn’t think something through before they did something?

              “It would seem to me if they knew that they probably would have left them where they were in the ghettos or just deported them all from the country.”

              According to denier mythology allegedly the Germans did deport millions of them…..but they can’t prove when, where or how.

              “A lot of time and effort and energy was spent on keeping these people alive they have no clue.”

              Nonsense.

              “And how did the Jews thank them by filing false charges against them that they were being gassed and shot and killed in all the camps”

              What do you mean by “filed?”

              “when in reality they were treated pretty well considering that if they were on the outside they would have been probably killed by the allied bombings.
              The best thing to happen to the Jews was to be put t in those camps they were fed they were clothed they had a place to sleep and so what was the complained….they shaved our heads and we had a work well some of them anyway.”

              Again, I wouldn’t expect thanks or kudos from people wrongly imprisoned.
              What is your proof of the diet the Jews ate in the camps?
              How they were clothed? Where they slept?

              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 13, 2016 @ 1:41 pm

              • I wrote about the reason that Jews were sent to camps on this blog post two years ago:
                https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/general-patton-and-his-attitude-toward-the-jews/

                Comment by furtherglory — March 13, 2016 @ 1:53 pm

              • Most of these people committed no crimes. How can you possibly justify incarcerating the elderly, women and children, whose only “crime” was being Jewish?

                Most of these people committed no crimes. How can you possibly justify incarcerating the elderly, women and children, whose only “crime” is being Palestinian?

                Comment by a reader — March 13, 2016 @ 11:07 pm

                • “Most of these people committed no crimes. How can you possibly justify incarcerating the elderly, women and children, whose only “crime” is being Palestinian?”

                  Now, see, that’s clever.
                  Turning that around. Nicely done.

                  But, it doesn’t answer my question.
                  Now, I’ll ask you for proof, just like I ask all deniers.

                  What proof do you have that instead of murdering the Jews that the Nazis evacuated them to the East?

                  Take your time. I’ll wait.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 7:26 am

                • You wrote: “What proof do you have that instead of murdering the Jews that the Nazis evacuated them to the East?”

                  The proof that the Jews were sent to the East is that some of them came back to Germany. I wrote about this in this blog post:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/did-hitler-just-want-to-expel-the-jews-from-europe-or-did-he-want-to-kill-them-all/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 14, 2016 @ 8:47 am

                • That’s not really proof.

                  Nisko was in Poland, not the USSR.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 9:06 am

                • Jeff wrote: “What proof do you have that instead of murdering the Jews that the Nazis evacuated them to the East?”

                  The very same ‘proof’ as that prove millions of Jews were mass murdered in gas chambers during WW2: i.e. testimonies. 0-0 tie, on that one.😉

                  Comment by hermie — March 14, 2016 @ 8:24 am

                • “The very same ‘proof’ as that prove millions of Jews were mass murdered in gas chambers during WW2: i.e. testimonies. 0-0 tie, on that one. ;-)”

                  Well, we can debate who is right over whether or not the gas chambers were in fact gas chambers all day long.

                  You’ll toss in Leuchter and Rudolf and I’ll toss in Green and the Poles. We’ll go round and round.

                  But, we both agree that the Germans deported the Jews.
                  Denier mythology claims that the ARC were transit camps. Over a million Polish Jews (and others) funnelled through these three locations (four if you count Chelmno).
                  Now, the Germans used trains to deport these Jews. This requires schedules because other people use these trains, military and civilian. If the Germans sent these Jews to camps to hold them until the end of the war this requires commanders and guards, not to mention materials and food.
                  There is no need to destroy this paperwork from the German side because it proves no harm came to the Jews (frankly there was no need to destroy Chelmno or the other “transit camps” because they had no military value and were small camps. The Germans did attempt to destroy other concentration/satelllite camps but did an incomplete job doing so).
                  Even if the allies did attempt to destroy this paperwork some would still exist.
                  Also, there would be the commanders and guards that staffed these camps.

                  So, why can’t some “revisionist” find this evidence?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 8:59 am

                • I’m a little confused by this statement about innocent Jewish men, women, and children being killed….so I guess it all depends on who the men women and children are, right?
                  Jewish men women and children are the ones we morn about but German women and children aren’t. Go figure?
                  When the allies bombed the German cities of Hamburg, Dresden , and several others that pretty much housed only innocent “German” men women and children but killing these peoplet was ok.
                  That was the true holocaust not the mamby pamby housing of Jewish people who were protected in the camps from such horror bombings.
                  And the biggest complaint of these Jewish folk had was they shaved our heads bald….wow what a crime? The Jews walk out of the camps alive and the Germans were found melted on the sidewalks. I think it’s time to get our priorities straight on who died and how.

                  Jim Rizoli
                  CCFIILE.COM
                  RIZOLITV.COM
                  IHR.ORG
                  VHO.ORG

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 8:52 am

                • Thank you Jesus ! At least somebody remembers folks in Dresden were murdered. Let’s not forget the orgy of “rape and murder”,that the ruskies bought to Berlin.

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 8:58 am

                • “Thank you Jesus ! At least somebody remembers folks in Dresden were murdered.”

                  Remember why Dresden and the other cities were bombed, Tim.
                  The Germans invaded Poland, a country protected by treaty, a treaty that the British and French upheld when they declared war.
                  The British repeatedly warned Hitler that if he attacked Poland this would result in war. Hitler did so anyway.
                  When the Germans invaded Poland they engaged in widespread bombings of Polish cities and towns. The Germans repeated this when they invaded other countries like the Netherlands, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, the USSR, etc. The main difference between the German bombing campaigns and the allies is the Germans lacked a truly heavy bomber.

                  The Germans invaded the USSR, pulling the Soviets in. The Germans declared war on the US, not the other way around.
                  While I disagree with the extent of the allies bombing campaign both sides used it. As far as I know no Luftwaffe commanders were ever put on trial specifically for bombing civilian targets, if they were put on trial it was for other accusations, like crimes against humanity.

                  “Let’s not forget the orgy of “rape and murder”,that the ruskies bought to Berlin.”

                  We shouldn’t forget it. I’ve noticed that recent books on the war discuss what the Red Army did, not only in Germany but Poland, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Japanese Manchuko, etc.

                  But again, the reason why those Red Army soldiers were in Berlin and other places was due to the Germans invading their country, not the other way around.

                  The Germans also committed rape in Poland, the USSR, etc., just not to the degree the Red Army did. The Germans also murdered millions of non-Jewish Soviet citizens and destroyed Soviet property, destroying hundreds of thousands of Soviet villages and damaging or destroying hundreds of Soviet cities, including Kiev, Stalingrad, Leningrad, etc.

                  So, while I can’t condone what the Soviets did I understand them being really pissed off.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 9:26 am

                • You wrote: “The Germans invaded Poland, a country protected by treaty, a treaty that the British and French upheld when they declared war.
                  The British repeatedly warned Hitler that if he attacked Poland this would result in war. Hitler did so anyway.”

                  I wrote about Hitler’s alleged invasion of Poland in this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/alfred-naujocks-and-the-start-of-world-war-ii/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 14, 2016 @ 9:32 am

                • When the Krauts were coming in from the west,the Reds were moving on Poland from the east. That’s correct,right? I thought I read where Papa Joe and Hitler were gonna split Poland down the middle. The Krauts were gonna get Danzig,because of its port,Correct ? As usual everyone wants to think,the Reds are perfect little angels. Everybody wants to cry about the Krauts having blood on their hands,but let’s not forget,the Ruskies were up to their ears in blood. Hell if I were the Poles,I’d beg Hitler to become part of Germany. The prosperity he bought to Germany,would extend to their nation. Instead Russia took Poland . How come nobody has ever mentioned the Jews that Stalin had put down? The Hebs weren’t exactly on Stalins list of favorites.

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 10:03 am

                • “When the Krauts were coming in from the west,the Reds were moving on Poland from the east. That’s correct,right? I thought I read where Papa Joe and Hitler were gonna split Poland down the middle. The Krauts were gonna get Danzig,because of its port,Correct ?”

                  The Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty split Poland down the middle, with the Soviets getting the East and the Germans getting the West. In addition, it set up zones of influence.
                  This was the price that Germany paid for Soviet neutrality.
                  It also shows the cynical side of both Stalin and Hitler. Both willingly abandoned their ideology for an advantage, Hitler perhaps a little less willingly.

                  “As usual everyone wants to think,the Reds are perfect little angels. Everybody wants to cry about the Krauts having blood on their hands,but let’s not forget,the Ruskies were up to their ears in blood.”

                  I’ve mentioned how things have turned. History now talks about what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe and Germany. Nobody thinks the Soviets were angels.

                  “Hell if I were the Poles,I’d beg Hitler to become part of Germany. The prosperity he bought to Germany,would extend to their nation.”

                  Not with Nazi ideology in control. The Germans ruthlessly exploited Poland while they possessed it, including the killing of Polish elites (Operation Tannenberg).

                  “Instead Russia took Poland.”

                  The Soviets possessed half of Poland with German help. The Soviets also conducted their own campaign against the Polish elites, culminating in the Katyn Massacre, the widespread murder of Polish military officers in the Spring of 1940.

                  “How come nobody has ever mentioned the Jews that Stalin had put down? The Hebs weren’t exactly on Stalins list of favorites.”

                  Stalin was planning a massive purge when he died in 1953.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 10:28 am

                • Stalins purge would’ve probably been swept under the rug. Us and the rest of the free world,would’ve been too chickenshit to arrest him if he started it. We can go into panama and arrest Noriega,but we would’ve never done that with Stalin.

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 11:52 am

                • You wrote: “Remember why Dresden and the other cities were bombed, Tim.”

                  I blogged about the bombing of Dresden on this blog post:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/the-bombing-of-coventry-and-dresden/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 14, 2016 @ 9:40 am

                • Jeff wrote: “So, why can’t some “revisionist” find this evidence?”

                  They can, jeff. They can. But you can’t blame the revisionists for being at the beginning of this field of research and for having mainly focused so far on the refutation of the exterminationist claims about Aushwitz, Majdanek, the AR camps. the Western [formerly] ‘death camps’ (Dachau, Buchenwald, Belsen, Mauthausen, etc.), the Nazi ‘human soap’, the Buchenwald ‘human-skin lamp shades’, etc. Understandable…

                  http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_2/evidence_for_the_presence_of_gassed_jews.php
                  http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_4/evidence_for_the_presence_of_gassed_jews_2.php
                  http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2011/volume_3/number_4/evidence_for_the_presence_of_gassed_jews_part_3.php

                  Jeff wrote: “frankly there was no need to destroy Chelmno or the other “transit camps” because they had no military value and were small camps.”

                  True that operational delousing stations at the Railway junction between Europe and Russia. Are you kidding me???

                  And never heard of a thing called scorched policy? Not much of the Treblinka Penal-Labor Camp (Treblinka 1) had been left behind either.

                  Comment by hermie — March 14, 2016 @ 2:45 pm

                • “They can, jeff. They can.”

                  Best they get cracking, then.
                  It’s been 70 years.

                  “But you can’t blame the revisionists for being at the beginning of this field of research and for having mainly focused so far on the refutation of the exterminationist claims about Aushwitz, Majdanek, the AR camps. the Western [formerly] ‘death camps’ (Dachau, Buchenwald, Belsen, Mauthausen, etc.), the Nazi ‘human soap’, the Buchenwald ‘human-skin lamp shades’, etc. Understandable…”

                  No, not really.
                  See, if you have doubts then you can start with what you said but you better come up with proof of where these Jews went.
                  Holocaust “revisionism” started soon after the war.

                  Besides dubious science and making fun of survivors, what else do you have?
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 3:16 pm

                • At one time I wanted to book Caesars palace and get hermie and the wolfman in there. Let em slug it out. However now I think I’ll book The Palace and let you two slug it out👹

                  Comment by Tim — March 14, 2016 @ 3:23 pm

                • Jeff…. with your lying survivors and the following false scientific evidence that you have which they can’t even decide if it was steam zyklon-b carbon dioxide carbon monoxide fart gas whatever, what else do you have.
                  Remember if you go to court and present the evidence you have your witnesses would have to be able to prove that the Holocaust happen we don’t have to prove anything but we would definitely be able to show you that it didn’t happen so I think our case would win. Just the fact that your witnesses would be found out to be the liars would be enough to seal the judgement against you.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 14, 2016 @ 3:27 pm

                • “Jeff…. with your lying survivors and the following false scientific evidence that you have which they can’t even decide if it was steam zyklon-b carbon dioxide carbon monoxide fart gas whatever, what else do you have.”

                  Jim, it was decided decades ago that steam was no longer valid.
                  The ARC used carbon monoxide, Birkenau used Zyclon B.
                  I hope I’ve cleared that up for you.

                  “Remember if you go to court and present the evidence you have your witnesses would have to be able to prove that the Holocaust happen we don’t have to prove anything but we would definitely be able to show you that it didn’t happen so I think our case would win. Just the fact that your witnesses would be found out to be the liars would be enough to seal the judgement against you.”

                  Jim, we can argue back and forth all day on whether or not the gas chambers were in fact gas chambers.
                  “Revisionists” do not have a viable theory on where the Jews went if they didn’t die.
                  I checked the book you quoted. It was, in fact, written in 1943 and published in 1944 which invalidates the information. I will look further into this. But, I’m not sure where the author is getting his information from.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 14, 2016 @ 5:13 pm

                • edit: …Railway junction between Europe and Russia … would have been of any use to the Soviets rolling over Germany.

                  Comment by hermie — March 14, 2016 @ 2:48 pm

                • Jeff wrote: ” if you have doubts then you can start with what you said but you better come up with proof of where these Jews went.”

                  As I’ve already told you previously, I don’t have to prove where these Jews went. I reject your reverse burden of proof. I don’t have to prove where these Jews went. But YOU have to prove these Jews were slaughtered. As in a normal court of justice. You’re not at Nuremberg. YOU are the accuser. YOU are the guy on whom the burden of proof lies. The Nuremberg mock court exempted itself from the duty to prove its so-called ‘facts of common knowledge’ (i.e. the victors’ propaganda assertions) and to bring any physical evidence of its claims. Holohoaxsters have never acted otherwise and rested on the IMT’s medieval methods and ‘proven facts’ so far. That era is over.

                  Jeff wrote: “Holocaust “revisionism” started soon after the war.”

                  …and focused on the refutation of the main exterminationist claims, quite successfully in fact, so compelling the Holohoaxsters to backpedal on a number of their claims.

                  Jeff wrote: “Besides dubious science and making fun of survivors, what else do you have?”

                  Dubious science? Quite rich from Mr. ‘Diesel exhaust is lethal’ & other scientific nonsense.😉

                  Besides that, I have a vast knowledge about who were the originators of most extermination claims and why they claimed that. And you, what do you have? Besides a collection of useless Ufology-like testimonies and witch-trials-like confessions, of course…

                  Comment by hermie — March 15, 2016 @ 2:30 am

                • “As I’ve already told you previously, I don’t have to prove where these Jews went. I reject your reverse burden of proof. I don’t have to prove where these Jews went. But YOU have to prove these Jews were slaughtered. As in a normal court of justice. You’re not at Nuremberg. YOU are the accuser. YOU are the guy on whom the burden of proof lies. The Nuremberg mock court exempted itself from the duty to prove its so-called ‘facts of common knowledge’ (i.e. the victors’ propaganda assertions) and to bring any physical evidence of its claims. Holohoaxsters have never acted otherwise and rested on the IMT’s medieval methods and ‘proven facts’ so far. That era is over.”

                  It’s a convenient fall back position for someone who doesn’t have anything to say:
                  “I don’t have to prove anything.”
                  You (or some other “revisionist) needs to prove what happened to the Jews if they didn’t die. We can debate gas chambers all day long. But if you can’t say what happened to the Jews then it simply becomes a my word against yours.

                  Jeff wrote: “Holocaust “revisionism” started soon after the war.”

                  “…and focused on the refutation of the main exterminationist claims, quite successfully in fact, so compelling the Holohoaxsters to backpedal on a number of their claims.”

                  What, shrunken heads?
                  Steam chambers?
                  Skin lampshades?
                  Ridiculous.

                  Jeff wrote: “Besides dubious science and making fun of survivors, what else do you have?”

                  “Dubious science? Quite rich from Mr. ‘Diesel exhaust is lethal’ & other scientific nonsense. ;-)”

                  Fine. It’s easy enough to disprove. Get yourself a diesel vehicle, put it in a garage, turn the engine on and sit there.
                  Talk about nonsense. Deniers make it sound like diesel exhaust is the breath of life. Maybe we should use diesel exhaust to treat emphysema patients.

                  “Besides that, I have a vast knowledge about who were the originators of most extermination claims and why they claimed that.”

                  You mean, some type of shadow conspiracy that made the three most powerful nations on earth bend to their wishes?
                  You’ve shown me a transcript of a telephone conversation. Wow. You’re right, those Zionists were bad ass. Dubious quotes and a phone transcript do not prove anything.

                  “And you, what do you have? Besides a collection of useless Ufology-like testimonies and witch-trials-like confessions, of course…”

                  Yes, I know. If I show you documents or counter arguments regarding the science your fall back will be Soviet typewriters and bought off experts.
                  It’s easy to claim lies or forgeries when confronted with counter arguments.

                  This is where it gets simple. We’ve reached an impasse. It’s easy to break that impasse. Provide proof of where the Nazis sent the Jews. If you can’t then it makes denier arguments implausible.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 3:41 am

                • “Besides a collection of useless Ufology-like testimonies and witch-trials-like confessions, of course…”

                  Why are you knocking UFOs?
                  Zundel likes them.

                  😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 3:59 am

                • Jeff wrote: “You (or some other “revisionist) needs to prove what happened to the Jews if they didn’t die.”

                  Only before a Soviet mock court during a Stalinist show trial or another similar parody of justice. Not in a world of law, reason and science.

                  Ever heard a judge say: ‘Accused, get up and prove the guy this court has been unable to show dead is in fact still alive.’? No? Never wondered why?

                  Jeff wrote: “We can debate gas chambers all day long. But if you can’t say what happened to the Jews then it simply becomes a my word against yours.”

                  Yes, your words against mine indeed. That’s because the prosecution case is empty. Real justice is much harder than baseless charges thrown by the victors of a war and not needing to be proved by ‘evidence’ other than school yard rumors, isn’t it?😉

                  Jeff wrote: “What, shrunken heads? Steam chambers? Skin lampshades? Ridiculous.”

                  Those, and the Auschwitz ‘gas chamber’ not being in its original state (unlike what was claimed by exterminationists during decades), the Dachau ‘gas chamber’ “never used as a gas chamber”, the ridiculously low death toll at Majdanek, etc.

                  Jeff wrote: “Deniers make it sound like diesel exhaust is the breath of life. Maybe we should use diesel exhaust to treat emphysema patients.”

                  Already done by the US EPA, with human ‘guinea pigs’ who were elderly or suffering from asthma, hypertension or metabolic syndrome. No need to mention none of the EPA’s human ‘guinea pigs’ died.

                  Jeff wrote: “You mean, some type of shadow conspiracy that made the three most powerful nations on earth bend to their wishes?”

                  There was no need to make them bend to their wishes. Providing them with some ‘reports’ useful for the vilification of their enemies of the day, was enough. Atrocity propaganda and psychological warfare in general were just part of their war armoury, as much part of their armoury as bullets and rockets.

                  The only shadow conspiracy i can see in this matter is the ‘Holocaust’ itself, a Top Secret conspiracy (the words ‘conspiracy’ and ‘conspirators’ were the most frequently used by the victors of WW2 at Nuremberg) designed and ordered by ghosts (most of the Nazi leaders supposedly involved in the ‘Holocaust’ were dead after the war), only orally of course (convenient to be exempted from having to provide a written order), mentioned only in the form of alleged genocidal code words and euphemisms (convenient to make any inocuous document speak as wanted), obliterated by special units (convenient to be exempted from providing any physical evidence of extravagant claims), and treated by almost everybody during the war ‘as if’ nothing was happening (Churchill, FDR, the State Dept, the OSS, most non-Zionist Jewish leaders, the Vatican, the International Red Cross, etc. all acted ‘as if’ no genocide was taking place). The ‘Holocaust’ is nothing but a ridiculous conspiracy theory…

                  Jeff wrote: “You’ve shown me a transcript of a telephone conversation. Wow. You’re right, those Zionists were bad ass. Dubious quotes and a phone transcript do not prove anything.”

                  Hey, that was only a very brief summary. I’ve provided you with much more than just a transcript of a telephone conversation, Jeff. But as you are too lazy to investigate my info deeper by yourself, you’ve seen nothing more than the phone transcript I had attached to my summary. Your choice, your problem…

                  Comment by hermie — March 15, 2016 @ 7:58 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Why are you knocking UFOs? Zundel likes them. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂”

                  Mr Zundel is as free as yourself to believe in extravagant things only ‘proven’ by farcical ‘evidence’ such as testimonies. Gas chambers, UFOs, alien abductions, same rumor-based BS for gullible kids…

                  Comment by hermie — March 15, 2016 @ 8:10 am

                • Jeff wrote: “You (or some other “revisionist) needs to prove what happened to the Jews if they didn’t die.”

                  “Only before a Soviet mock court during a Stalinist show trial or another similar parody of justice. Not in a world of law, reason and science.”

                  Fancy dodging.
                  Denier translation:
                  We can’t tell you where the Jews went. We’ll just muddy the waters enough so that no one will notice we don’t have a viable explanation on where the Nazis allegedly sent these Jews.

                  “Ever heard a judge say: ‘Accused, get up and prove the guy this court has been unable to show dead is in fact still alive.’? No? Never wondered why?”

                  It’s funny how you revert back to some sort of trial analogy.
                  Here’s the deal:
                  This is not a trial. Deniers say that that the Holocaust didn’t happen.
                  Deniers question history. Fine. I don’t have a problem with that.
                  We can sling science around, question witness statements, etc., etc.
                  Deniers have a THEORY about what happened to the Jews during the war. Now you have to PROVE that theory because it is the one thing that will prove without a doubt that the Holocaust didn’t happen.
                  What I see, however, is a lot of ducking and dodging about the whole issue.
                  I don’t see why this is so hard. After all, we have records of the deportations. We have a starting point, where the Jews went, and a stopping point, the camps where they wound up.
                  So, for example, we have Jews transported to Treblinka. A lot of them. The Hoefle Telegram lists, what, 730,000 people?
                  That’s a lot, right? Women, children, elderly, young men, etc.
                  Now, if they were transported off site and not killed, we should have the train schedules to prove this.
                  If the Nazis sent them East, then we should have a destination point, right? More than that, we need someone to command these camps and troops to guard them. We should have correspondence between the SS and the military coordinating this because at the same time these transports were leaving the German Military was engaged in Case Blue, the German Military assault into the Southern reaches of the Soviet Union. This included the Battle of Stalingrad.
                  Also, Hitler transferred troops North to Leningrad.

                  So, that’s a mountain of paperwork. I haven’t even mentioned the need to supply these camps or even allocate the supplies to build them.

                  With these camps come the witnesses. You have the inmates, guards and commanders of these camps. That means personnel files for said guards and commanders.

                  So, if the camps existed there would a lot of evidence for them.
                  So, whatcha got? Anything?

                  Jeff wrote: “We can debate gas chambers all day long. But if you can’t say what happened to the Jews then it simply becomes a my word against yours.”

                  “Yes, your words against mine indeed. That’s because the prosecution case is empty. Real justice is much harder than baseless charges thrown by the victors of a war and not needing to be proved by ‘evidence’ other than school yard rumors, isn’t it? ;-)”

                  Uh huh.
                  So, prove it.
                  Where did the Jews go the Nazis deported?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 15, 2016 @ 11:57 am

                • Jeff….like I said the Treblinka book has some interesting info for you but you refuse to read it….
                  So lets sum it up…..you believe that there were homicidal gas chambers that operated with all different mechanisms many laughable to kill people with NO proof….Not only NO proof it would be pretty hard to duplicate the process today according to the way the buildings were set up back then. We believe that the many of the Jews were sent to work camps (if fit) to do so, if not, cared for in camps specially suited for them to wait out the end of the war and many actually survived, and for some moved East to parts unknown……
                  I think our case has a better chance in court because we aren’t presenting a fairy tale, based on many thousands of false testimonies.
                  We are just saying since they weren’t killed in homicidal gas chambers or whatever type of setting they ended up somewhere where they weren’t tracked to. I think ours is a more honest case to deal with. Yours is based on lies and misrepresentations.

                  Jim Rizoli
                  CCFIILE.COM
                  RIZOLITV.COM
                  IHR.ORG
                  VHO.ORG

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 12:44 pm

                • “Jeff….like I said the Treblinka book has some interesting info for you but you refuse to read it….
                  So lets sum it up…..you believe that there were homicidal gas chambers that operated with all different mechanisms many laughable to kill people with NO proof….”

                  Jim, you are fixating on the various rumors flying around about these camps during a time of war.
                  Go to any Holicaust site and it will say that the Action Reinhard Camps used carbon monoxide to murder the Jews. The main dispute seems to be over Treblinka, where there is disagreement over what type of engine was used, diesel or regular gas.
                  Now, what we know is that the camp used both a diesel and a regular gas engine to power the generators used on site. One of them was also used as the killing mechanism.
                  I don’t think it makes much of a difference, both are lethal in a closed environment where the air is restricted or the room is airtight.
                  Deniers make much of the fact that diesel produces far less carbon monoxide than a regular engine. This is true, however, you can modify the engine to produce more carbon monoxide. Also, diesel produces both carbon and sulphur dioxide, along with black soot. All three are lethal. Add in the fact that the room was air tight, or at least air restricted and people will die.
                  Now, it is also possible that that the Diesel engine was used for the generator and the regular gas engine as the killing device.
                  I find both arguments persuasive.

                  “Not only NO proof it would be pretty hard to duplicate the process today according to the way the buildings were set up back then.”

                  How hard is it to make a room air tight?
                  Are you saying the Germans couldn’t do this?

                  “We believe that the many of the Jews were sent to work camps (if fit) to do so, if not, cared for in camps specially suited for them to wait out the end of the war and many actually survived, and for some moved East to parts unknown……”

                  Is there any proof of this whatsoever?

                  Jim, it is a fact that some Jews wound up in Belorussia after being sent through actual transit camps.
                  The problem is that this is simply not accounted for in the numbers that have popped up.

                  “I think our case has a better chance in court because we aren’t presenting a fairy tale, based on many thousands of false testimonies.”

                  But you have no proof that all of these Jews were evacuated to the East.

                  “We are just saying since they weren’t killed in homicidal gas chambers or whatever type of setting they ended up somewhere where they weren’t tracked to. I think ours is a more honest case to deal with. Yours is based on lies and misrepresentations.”

                  70 years of historical research says otherwise.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 1:06 pm

                • Jeff……quite..70 years of historical research says otherwise.

                  Jeff……. Really now! our you smoking coke? Sadly you don’t know the difference between good research and bullshit….
                  I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona…

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 1:41 pm

                • I don’t even drink Coke any more, Jim. All of that sugar is bad for you.

                  As for the rest of your comment, I’ve noticed that 70 years of….”revisionist” research hasn’t turned up where the Jews went if the ARC were transit camps.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 2:26 pm

                • Jeff….wrong coke….the one that goes up your nose….LOL

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 2:34 pm

                • I thought they only did that a short time with the gas (carbon monoxide) vans. Found out they couldn’t do it fast enough and it proved to be a very weak tool when it came to production

                  Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 1:55 pm

                • The SS used gas vans at Chelmno.
                  They also used them a few other places but they did have issues with handling in bad weather, that sort of thing.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 2:23 pm

                • Jeff again you refuse to read the truth about the “gas vans”
                  https://archive.org/stream/Holocaust_Handbooks/26_The_Gas_Vans_A_Critical_Study#page/n3/mode/2up

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 2:29 pm

                • Jim, I simply cannot read the so called “Holocaust handbooks.”
                  They make my head hurt they are so God awful.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 2:57 pm

                • I wrote about the “gas vans” on this previous blog post:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/gas-vans/

                  Do I believe in the “gas vans”? No, but I do believe that pigs fly.

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 18, 2016 @ 3:07 pm

                • I wrote about Chelmno on this previous blog post:
                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/chelmno-the-little-known-death-camp/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 18, 2016 @ 2:59 pm

                • I really need to get the book that Martin Gilbert wrote on the Holocaust.
                  It constantly surprises me all of the different books there are on the Holocaust.
                  Gilbert’s book is highly recommended.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 3:06 pm

                • But there were never like huge motors in place at different prisons that they could fire up and fill a chamber with,right

                  Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 4:13 pm

                • Jeff – Jim, Tim, FG, John Mortl and others provide you with rock hard evidence and arguments that you refuse to accept so you reject. Your argument takes the form of fairy tales, but still WE provide the information that would be a ‘slam dunk’ in any debate or presentation of an unbiased court. I love Jim Rizoli’s summaries of the lunacy:

                  “Bottom line the USA backed the wrong country…..they should have made an alliance with the Germans and kicked Russia’s ass but they didn’t. Problem is, there wouldn’t have been the lie of the six million, and the Jews would have had nothing to complain about now. The Jews were happy with death and destruction even if some of them suffered. (They were invited to leave the Reich, many did, many didn’t) Hitler was stuck with them. He wanted them out but now he had a world war to contend with. He figured he’d deal with them after the war – continue the migration.

                  “So until then, he put them to work near the industrial centers. But they working for the Germans was considered suffering. However, most of them made it out alive so it wasn’t so bad until the reparations scam kicked in and they needed some good stories to get on the payroll. So they came up with some great HoloHoax stories and here are are today. Of course everyone seems to be happy, the Jews got their hush money, and Israel got their own country.” However, we are ALL losers with the jews ‘win’.

                  and

                  “So essentially, the myth is summarized as 6 million jews being shipped to Poland (with limited resources during a 2-front war) to be killed with bug spray.”

                  Comment by Diane King — March 18, 2016 @ 2:20 pm

                • “Jeff – Jim, Tim, FG, John Mortl and others provide you with rock hard evidence and arguments that you refuse to accept so you reject.”

                  What rock hard evidence? Leuchter? Rudolf?

                  I keep asking for evidence of what happened to the Jews if they didn’t die. No one can provide it.

                  “Your argument takes the form of fairy tales, but still WE provide the information that would be a ‘slam dunk’ in any debate or presentation of an unbiased court.”

                  The fairy tale here is some sort camp system set up for the Jews inside the USSR. That is the fairy tale.

                  I love Jim Rizoli’s summaries of the lunacy:

                  “Bottom line the USA backed the wrong country…..they should have made an alliance with the Germans and kicked Russia’s ass but they didn’t. Problem is, there wouldn’t have been the lie of the six million, and the Jews would have had nothing to complain about now. The Jews were happy with death and destruction even if some of them suffered. (They were invited to leave the Reich, many did, many didn’t) Hitler was stuck with them. He wanted them out but now he had a world war to contend with. He figured he’d deal with them after the war – continue the migration.”

                  Utter nonsense.

                  “So until then, he put them to work near the industrial centers. But they working for the Germans was considered suffering. However, most of them made it out alive so it wasn’t so bad until the reparations scam kicked in and they needed some good stories to get on the payroll. So they came up with some great HoloHoax stories and here are are today. Of course everyone seems to be happy, the Jews got their hush money, and Israel got their own country.” However, we are ALL losers with the jews ‘win’.”

                  More nonsense.

                  “So essentially, the myth is summarized as 6 million jews being shipped to Poland (with limited resources during a 2-front war) to be killed with bug spray.”

                  Wrong. Really wrong.
                  More than half of the Jews that died LIVED in Poland or in the Western part of the Soviet Union.
                  The Holocaust started as mass shooting actions, followed by gassing using carbon monoxide and then the use Zyclon B (which is not “bug spray”).
                  Jews also died of starvation, disease and maltreatment.
                  Seriously, is this some kind of comedy act? Has either one of you actually ever read a real history book about the Holocaust?
                  Look, you can believe what you want. But saying that 6 million Jews were killed by “bug spray” is not even accurate by denier standards.

                  Good grief and holy shit.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 2:53 pm

                • Jeff…..What do you call Zyclon B? It was made especially for lice…..seems like bug spray to me.
                  On another topic…..the other HoloHoax scam….Treblinka…
                  How about some eyewitnesses who tell the truth about Treblinka?
                  http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html
                  The Truth about Treblinka where 870,000 jews miraculously disappeared without a trace…..No bones, no teeth, no nothing poof….
                  Jeff, where was that bone crushing machine located….LOL It’s hard to crush 870,000 bodies with no one mentioning it.
                  Oh I get it when bodies burn on an open flame fire the bones just turn to ash…..poof!
                  Do you understand what it would take time wise to even crush all the bones to ash? Approx 8 lbs of ash per body x 870,000= approx 7 million lbs of ash, and that doesn’t even count the wood ash!!!!!….where were the trucks parked to haul that stash of ash? Where was the mountain of ashes stored? No one mentions anything relating to this? You do realize the fire would have to be put out to collect the ash from the bodies and the wood. How long would that take to do? Yet they say everyday thousands of bodies were burned hibachi style EVERY day!
                  I guess it was such a small thing to thing to talk about at the time. Where was the 400-500 lbs of wood they needed to burn one body on those metal rails? Now multiply 500 lbs of wood x 870,000 bodies…. That is 435 million lbs of wood yes million…???? How about the trucks carrying that wood to the so called fire pitts??? Unless they carried all the wood by hand….LOL See ya in 20 years…..LOL
                  I guess the easy answer is it happened because they say it happened…..you bet….that is the easy answer.
                  You have to be a complete imbecile to believe this stuff! Please someone show me how this happened.
                  Jeff…..explain to me in detail how they managed to do this with my figures here…..

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 3:47 pm

                • “Jeff…..What do you call Zyclon B? It was made especially for lice…..seems like bug spray to me.”

                  It was a fumigate. Not a bug spray. It wasn’t used to kill six million people.

                  “On another topic…..the other HoloHoax scam….Treblinka…
                  How about some eyewitnesses who tell the truth about Treblinka?
                  http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html
                  The Truth about Treblinka where 870,000 jews miraculously disappeared without a trace…..No bones, no teeth, no nothing poof….
                  Jeff, where was that bone crushing machine located….LOL It’s hard to crush 870,000 bodies with no one mentioning it.”

                  Even if it did, would you believe them?

                  “Oh I get it when bodies burn on an open flame fire the bones just turn to ash…..poof!
                  Do you understand what it would take time wise to even crush all the bones to ash? Approx 8 lbs of ash per body x 870,000= approx 7 million lbs of ash, and that doesn’t even count the wood ash!!!!!….where were the trucks parked to haul that stash of ash? Where was the mountain of ashes stored? No one mentions anything relating to this? You do realize the fire would have to be put out to collect the ash from the bodies and the wood. How long would that take to do? Yet they say everyday thousands of bodies were burned hibachi style EVERY day!
                  I guess it was such a small thing to thing to talk about at the time. Where was the 400-500 lbs of wood they needed to burn one body on those metal rails? Now multiply 500 lbs of wood x 870,000 bodies…. That is 435 million lbs of wood yes million…???? How about the trucks carrying that wood to the so called fire pitts??? Unless they carried all the wood by hand….LOL See ya in 20 years…..LOL
                  I guess the easy answer is it happened because they say it happened…..you bet….that is the easy answer.
                  You have to be a complete imbecile to believe this stuff! Please someone show me how this happened.
                  Jeff…..explain to me in detail how they managed to do this with my figures here…..”

                  I’ll tell you what, Jim.
                  Read this and get back to me.
                  http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust.html?m=1

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 9:52 pm

                • Quote from your Holohuxster source…

                  One can suppose that the ashes filled the pits completely, and only a very thin layer of surface soil was used as a cover. Therefore during the camp closing in 1943 year and leveling works taken up at that time, as well as robbery digs around the camp area directly after the war, the most part of body ashes was placed over the surface, and even now the presence of burnt bodies’ traces is quite clear in the surface structures, particularly in the western and northern part of the camp. In those very parts the zone of graves was located.[251]

                  Did you catch the term traces….
                  Traces are not 870,000

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 10:05 pm

                • This is the biggest obstacle for me. It’s confusion for me. One day they say 6 mill. Next day it’s 4 mill. Last I heard,they were down to 1.5 mill. I’ve already read where they destroyed some records. I find it hard to believe those were the only ones destroyed. Have they ever been able to break these numbers down into groups ? You know. This number of folks died from gas. This number died from disease. This group,from starvation. No matter how these folks died,it was bad shit,period. However I never see the starvation/disease aspect bought up to much. It’s always the gas. So I don’t know what numbers to accept or not. Before I found this site,I was under the impression all the Jews died by gas. I guess once again it boils down to “history is written,by those who write it”. The bad part there,I always accepted everything that was written

                  Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 4:57 pm

                • Tim….all deaths under 500 K half might of been Jews. Not including criminal Jews shot for being assholes.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 5:23 pm

                • “Tim….all deaths under 500 K half might of been Jews. Not including criminal Jews shot for being assholes.”

                  Were all those women and children shot for being “criminal assholes?”
                  There were over a million of them. They were all criminals?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 10:08 pm

                • Jeff…. show me where women and children were shot pictures please.
                  I can show you pictures of onnocent men women and children that were burned to death in Dresden Hamburg and other cities that the allies bombed to hell. For some reason you have not acknowledged that happening but you would care to comment on it and I understand why. It only seems like the deaths that concern you are Jews there were more German deaths way more Germans died then Jews.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 10:17 pm

                • http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/einsatz.html

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 10:33 pm

                • I wrote about the Einsatzgruppen on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/new-evidence-of-the-holocaust-the-shoah-by-bullets/#more-16138

                  The link that you gave has the cropped photo that I blogged about. It shows a German soldier who appears to be shooting at a mother holding her child. The Holocaust is nothing but FAKE, FAKE, FAKE evidence. Yet, you keep on posting Holocaust lies.

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 5:32 am

                • “I wrote about the Einsatzgruppen on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/new-evidence-of-the-holocaust-the-shoah-by-bullets/#more-16138

                  The link that you gave has the cropped photo that I blogged about. It shows a German soldier who appears to be shooting at a mother holding her child. The Holocaust is nothing but FAKE, FAKE, FAKE evidence. Yet, you keep on posting Holocaust lies.”

                  One photo out of the many that I posted is questionable.
                  That’s all.
                  I can see why. The soldier appears to be pointing his rifle at the woman but it is just as conceivable that he is getting ready to fire at the people to the right.
                  But, it does beg the question of what the mother and child were doing in an empty field with soldiers firing at a group of people. What happened to them next?
                  Fake, fake, fake. I see a lot of that here.
                  Forgeries and lies, lying survivors, tortured SS men.

                  The thing is, nothing I’ve seen here or anywhere else convinces me that Holocaust denial is an honest reappraisal of what happened to the Jews during the war.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 8:20 am

                • You wrote: “The thing is, nothing I’ve seen here or anywhere else convinces me that Holocaust denial is an honest reappraisal of what happened to the Jews during the war.”

                  Good for you! You are a real “True Believer”. I don’t know if you have noticed, but you are one of the very few True Believers who reads my blog and comments. Usually, the True Believers give up and leave, after trying to comment here.

                  I have written a previous blog post about what Americans will be required to believe after America passes a Holocaust denial law, which I expect to be passed soon.

                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/when-a-holocaust-denial-law-is-eventually-passed-in-america-what-will-us-citizens-be-required-to-believe/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 9:06 am

                • I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment.

                  Comment by Jeff K, — March 19, 2016 @ 9:12 am

                • Jeff……… thanks for the good laugh this morning…..
                  Your picture is here…..it’s probably one of the favorites of HoloHoaxers.

                  http://lovkap.blogspot.com/2014/09/holocaust-fake-pics-1.html
                  http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcffor.html

                  Fake Fake Fake everything else…..
                  http://codoh.com/library/document/233/

                  To think the HoloHoax is based on nothing but fake everything is quite sad…..

                  Jim Rizoli
                  CCFIILE.COM
                  RIZOLITV.COM
                  IHR.ORG
                  VHO.ORG

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 9:32 am

                • I wrote about the subject “Did 6 million really die?” on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/did-6-million-jews-really-die-in-the-holocaust-not-according-to-david-irving/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 10:33 am

                • I’ve mentioned that I do think one of the pictures is questionable.
                  That’s one photograph out of several I sent you.

                  However, you or any other denier can end this by providing proof of where the Jews went, specifically those Jews deported between 1942-1944.

                  Best you deniers get cracking, then.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 10:47 am

                • I wrote about where the Jews went on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/how-many-hungarian-jews-were-murdered-in-the-holocaust/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 10:58 am

                • Where did all the Jews go if they weren’t exterminated in the camps easy answer they were moved Eastwood Jeff’s answer who knows but the deniers have to find out… like that’s going to happen.
                  We deniers might be good with facts but we are not good with mind-reading and fortune telling.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:16 am

                • “Where did all the Jews go if they weren’t exterminated in the camps easy answer”

                  Then why can’t you answer?

                  “they were moved Eastwood Jeff’s answer who knows but the deniers have to find out… like that’s going to happen.”

                  Well, it’s part of the denier mythology. If you want me to stop calling it mythology you will prove it.

                  “We deniers might be good with facts but we are not good with mind-reading and fortune telling.”

                  But, if it’s a fact, why can’t you prove it?

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 11:33 am

                • Jeff if what you say is fact why can’t you prove it?

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:36 am

                • Jim, I sent you pictures of Einsatzgruppen.

                  You said they were fake.

                  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 11:54 am

                • Jeff…. the pictures you sent were fake Jeff what can I say. I think the YouTube video is pretty clear don’t you think.

                  The Einsatzgruppen had a job to do to clear the way like I mentioned in the past post for the regular army to come into town what they did was not murder they were just getting rid of all the Riff Raff that opposed them.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:58 am

                • “They were sent in front of the regular army”

                  Wrong. They FOLLOWED the army.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 12:03 pm

                • Jeff…. what would make more sense the Einsatzgruppen following the army or proceeding. They were there to protect the German military as they went into the towns. That’s what I’ve come up with any way in my investigation of it. Of course your explanation would make sense if you want to go with your Viewpoint that they were murderers and killers of innocent people.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 12:27 pm

                • Jim.
                  Seriously.
                  The origins of the Eisatzgruppen predate the invasion of the USSR. In all instances they FOLLOWED the regular army. They were not scout or reconnaissance groups because their mandate was political, not military, even though the military supported them.
                  Read the links below.
                  Or, check with some of your denier buddies. I’m not all that familiar how the Einsatzgruppen slot into denier mythology but from what I can tell even they say the Einsatzgruppen followed the regular army, not the other way around.

                  http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/

                  http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/

                  https://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/DEFN/einsatzg.htm

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 12:39 pm

                • Yes, it does.
                  I read through all of it.
                  Thank you for the link.

                  I’m not going to question any of it. While the numbers are hazy in some places I will not argue with Kues over details.

                  Now, here’s the tricky part:
                  Most of what I saw there dealt with Baltic evacuations.
                  What about the Polish Jews?
                  I will not dispute that some escaped. I will not dispute that some were indeed transported from Poland.
                  The Hoefle Telegram shows Jews transported to each of the Action Reinhard Camps.
                  The Koehrer Report shows Jews transported to Chelmno. Neither one of these documents shows a “from” and “to.”
                  Why?
                  I still go back to the Hungarian Jews. What happened to them?
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 3:11 pm

                • It said that in Jan and Feb of ’42,Russia was evacuating large numbers of Jews . Since when did Russia give a shit about Jews ? They weren’t exactly gonna show up on the list of who Stalin was gonna send Christmas cards to.

                  Comment by Tim — March 20, 2016 @ 11:46 am

                • The numbers in that article are a little odd, Tim.
                  I think some of the Jews did flee to the East.

                  Stalin did allow a committee of Soviet Jews to form an anti-Fascist Committee in 1943 (or possibly 1942, I don’t remember) but when the war was over he purged all of them.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 2:46 pm

                • Sounds like Stalin. No longer have a use for them,dispose of them. Hey I heard someone say one time that Stalin almost f–ked himself with the war. People told me he disposed of so many of the top dogs in his military machine, that there was hardly anyone left to lead. I heard the leaders he had remaining,poured their troops away like water. How true is that. I mean I know man power was not a problem, but without the leaders,everyone’s gonna be running around the field of battle like their the 3 stooges.

                  Comment by Tim — March 20, 2016 @ 3:04 pm

                • FG. This is the biggest stumbling block for me when it comes to this subject. You’ve penned many articles dealing with the “numbers”. You’ve wrote a lot about how the numbers keep changing. You wrote about how that priest is trying to excavate the corpses of 2 mill Jews. Okay you said the folks at Aushwitz said it was 6 million Jews that were bumped off. Then you said those people knocked the number down to 4 mill. One piece you wrote,you said they have got their number down to 1.5 mill. Now we’ve got this clown,saying he wants to Bring to light the “holo in the east”. It said over 1/3 of these folks were bumped off in different communities with lead. If I read it right,these folks made up a third,of the 6 million number,or is it 4 million. Maybe it’s the 1.5 million number. Somebody please,make up my mind. This is the first time I ever heard about this. Were any of these hitmen ever put on trial for their handy work? Why is it the Jews are just jumping up and down over their people,that met their ends in the gas house. These Jews were gunned down. Does the way they died make them less than the Jews who died by gas. The way I see it,murder is murder. So why don’t the Jews want this part of their history to be put in the spotlight? They may very well have made mention of this. If they did I think the reason I missed it,was because they’ve always got the gas house horror ,front and center.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 11:16 am

                • Tim I gave links to the Holocaust handbooks that explained from A to Z what happened during this time.. It’s up to you to take the time to read them I read a book every week or so we’re told about the topic I read every day about the topic I feel I know quite a bit about the topic so what you have to do is fill your mind with the correct knowledge. You wouldn’t even have to be asking these questions if you just read more if you have time to post on this list then you have time to read. Again I gave you the links to all the information they are for you to read yourself and come to your own conclusions don’t depend on others to tell you what’s going on read it for yourself.
                  I just finished reading the Treblinka book now I’m reading the book Inside the Gas Chambers which pretty much explains exactly what happened knowledge is power take advantage of educate yourself along with everyone else on this list who have questions.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:27 am

                • I went there. That was the one where I asked you if that site had an app for an iPhone or if there was anyway I could open those documents in the books app on my phone. I couldn’t read the material because of that

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 12:41 pm

                • Tim, try doing a Google search.
                  I’ve done that in the past.
                  Try searching on Holocaust Handbooks.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 12:48 pm

                • You can download all the books as PDF.s

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 12:52 pm

                • I got it to work. I opened it in another page and it gave the pages one under the other . Easy to read now. Thanks

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 3:00 pm

                • Tim if you start reading all those PDFs you’re going to be an expert on what happened during the Holocaust and you’ll even be able to debate Jeff

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 3:02 pm

                • I got it to work. Just had to open it in a seperate page. Thanks

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 2:56 pm

                • If you want to discuss anything you see, let me know.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 3:03 pm

                • Try this, Tim.

                  It looks a little odd but I pulled it up this way.

                  https://archive.org/details/Holocaust_Handbooks

                  Comment by Jeff K — March 19, 2016 @ 12:53 pm

                • It’s still giving me grief . I did notice an icon at the top page with the other icons. It was an audio icon. Is any of this available in that format? To where you can listen to it?

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 2:40 pm

                • You wrote: “you said they have got their number down to 1.5 mill.”

                  No, the number is now down to 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz. The other 4.9 million were killed somewhere else. The 6 million figure is sacred and will never change. You cannot deny the 6 million figure unless you want to go to prison in 19 countries. I expect that America will soon have a Holocaust denial law. I am hoping to be convicted and sent to an old folks home. I won’t have to pay for my stay in an old folks home because the government will have to pay for it.

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 11:34 am

                • FG…. hopefully I and those who think like us will be joining you in that old folks home.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:38 am

                • I don’t know . Maybe in the distant future. I just don’t see it happening. As nation,our citizens are too defiant . They’ve been trying to take away our guns for the longest time. People like to say the 2nd amendment was written at a different time. In the time period we live in,they say it dont apply. I don’t give my guns up for shit. I’m thinking if they were to pass holo laws,they’d be doing it right now. It’s a hot topic and all the other countries are jumping on the band wagon. I think the only reason they’ve been doing that,is because all this shit happened in their neck of the woods. I’ve got a lot more faith in my country for that to happen. My country,not our elected officials. If it did become a law,doubtful it would be enforced. It would end up being one of those laws like,it’s illegal to hang laundry out on Sunday ( some city in this country,that is a law). The law is on the books,but never enforced

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 1:02 pm

                • Lots to read here
                  https://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/rescuing-israel-the-holocaust/

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 1:19 pm

                • Okay. That read like a web page. No trouble there. See how confused I can get my feeble mind off this one. Thanks

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 3:04 pm

                • “Okay you said the folks at Aushwitz said it was 6 million Jews that were bumped off. Then you said those people knocked the number down to 4 mill.”

                  Tim, no one ever claimed six million Jews died at Auschwitz.
                  Also, the plaque that said four million never actually said Jews, it said people.
                  The Soviets thought that the killing went on from when the camp was open, 1940, to when it closed, 1945. This is where they got the inflated numbers.

                  Most serious historians, from Reitlinger to Hilburg, questioned those numbers

                  The director of the museum at Auschwitz, a man named Piper, did his own research and came up with a drastically lower number. Other researchers did the same and all them claim around 1 million, some a little more.

                  “One piece you wrote,you said they have got their number down to 1.5 mill. Now we’ve got this clown,saying he wants to Bring to light the “holo in the east”. It said over 1/3 of these folks were bumped off in different communities with lead. If I read it right,these folks made up a third,of the 6 million number,or is it 4 million. Maybe it’s the 1.5 million number. Somebody please,make up my mind. This is the first time I ever heard about this. Were any of these hitmen ever put on trial for their handy work?”

                  There were several Einsatzgruppen Trials:

                  http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/einsatztrial.html

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 11:43 am

                • More lies about the Einsatzgruppen.
                  They were sent in front of the regular army to clear out all partisians seditionists who we’re trying to kill the Germans as they went into towns. The Einsatzgruppen they said killed 90000 people which is impossible It could never of happened that’s a lie. They did Kill probably thousands but the people that they killed were seditionist treasonous subversives that should have been killed because they were killing German citizen and soldiers themselves.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:55 am

                • I’m just going on what I’ve read and heard. That’s why I’m here. Trying to find out what the truth actually is. It’ll probably never be known . Body counts of any kind always seemed senseless to me. One side can have a higher body count,but it don’t mean that side is any closer to their objective. I found just how the bad truth can be stretched with body counts from Nam. We had a CO that would always pad our body counts. Some of the numbers he turned in were just rediculous. I saw one time an actual count of one VC and seven NVA regulars,get inflated 21 NVA regulars. Anybody that knew anything about that area ( there was nothing fabulous about it),would question that number. It reminded me of one of those little roadside parks that you’d see on the highways that were the major highways before the interstate system. The kind that have a couple broken down picnic tables. There’s a little trash on the ground to indicate people have been through there, but they just don’t frequent that path anymore. That’s why I never put much faith in numbers. That’s what I have a hard time with here. The people that turn in the numbers for the Jews that were/ were not murdered are no better than the COs we had turning in the body counts. I think they’re all full of shit myself. Even if someone would come out and say,” getting accurate numbers is not gonna happen. We got a number we can all agree on. It’s not a 100%,but there it is”. This 6 million that they keep on hammering away with is just smoke and mirrors. If they want that number,fine. Stop with all this other bullshit of 4 or 1.5 mil,or whatever the hell it is now. I don’t care where they were killed or how they were killed. Just get a number. All the rest is smoke,mirrors and bullshit. Shit shouldn’t be this confusing,but it seems like nobody is happy unless it is. These holo laws I hear of,are childish bullshit. What? Hurts the Jews feelings if people don’t fall in line with what they say? Grow the f–k up. Welcome to the world. Nobody is loved and everyone gets their feelings hurt. They remind me of scorned little school girls. “The captain of the football team didn’t ask me to the prom. He asked Susie Rotten Crotch. Boo hoo. I’m going to pitch a fit”. That’s just how they seem to me

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 2:26 pm

                • You gave a link to a large number of photos, including the famous photo of a German soldier shooting at what appears to be a mother holding a child. This is a favorite photo for True Believers to claim that German soldiers violated the rules of war by shooting at innocent women and children. I wrote about the misuse of that photo on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/if-you-cant-get-to-a-holocaust-museum-the-museum-will-come-to-you/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 4:50 am

                • Then again,a picture is worth a thousand words. People don’t care if they’re being truthful or not. They’ll use shit like that,to get whatever mileage they can out of it. It’s just more confusion war provides us with.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 10:39 am

                • “This is the biggest obstacle for me. It’s confusion for me. One day they say 6 mill. Next day it’s 4 mill. Last I heard,they were down to 1.5 mill.”

                  Tim, only Holocaust deniers harp on the whole “six million” number.
                  There have been various numbers used since the end of the war.
                  I’ve seen estimates as low as 4.8 million, some as high as 5.9 million.
                  It really just depends on the researcher and the methods they used.

                  Read this, Tim:

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

                  Wikipedia breaks it down pretty well and also lists the non-Jewish victims.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 10:05 pm

                • Jeff… All the links that you are showing me here are just plain links with no facts just blah blah blah nothing to back it up.
                  False witness testimony ridiculous figures what else can I say.
                  No different from the story like the three little bears or Pinocchio.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 18, 2016 @ 10:11 pm

                • I’ve downloaded a copy of the actual book.
                  Basically it shreds Holocaust denial.
                  Read it if you dare, Jim.

                  http://www.academia.edu/1193426/Belzec_Sobibor_Treblinka._Holocaust_Denial_and_Operation_Reinhard._A_Critique_of_the_Falsehoods_of_Mattogno_Graf_and_Kues

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 10:20 pm

                • The only dodging I can see on here is yours, Jeff.

                  You can’t prove these people were murdered or even died? OK. Dully noted. So neither I nor anybody else has to prove where these people went during and after the war. Funny to see how hard it is for you to accept a normal, not upside down, burden of proof. You’re visibly so unaccustomed to that. So uncomfortable, isn’t it? Real balanced justice is so much harder than one-sided inquisitorial charges and allegations. I know. Time for you to hug a puppy, I think…😉

                  Comment by hermie — March 16, 2016 @ 2:31 am

                • “The only dodging I can see on here is yours, Jeff.”

                  The only thing I can see here is a lot ducking, Hermie.
                  Duck, duck, duck.

                  “You can’t prove these people were murdered or even died? OK. Dully noted.”

                  So, mass graves at Belzec, piles of ash, the bodies at Majdanek, none of these things ring a bell?

                  “So neither I nor anybody else has to prove where these people went during and after the war.”

                  If you want anyone to take you seriously you would.

                  “Funny to see how hard it is for you to accept a normal, not upside down, burden of proof. You’re visibly so unaccustomed to that.”

                  I’m unaccustomed to people having a theory and then unable or unwilling to prove it.

                  Deniers:
                  The Germans deported the Jews to camps inside the Soviet Union instead of killing them.

                  Me:
                  Ok. Do you have any proof of that?

                  Deniers:
                  No.

                  Me:
                  Ok. So why should I believe you?

                  Deniers:
                  Because we said so.

                  Me:
                  Ok. So, you are telling me that this happened the way you said it did but you don’t have to prove it?

                  Deniers:
                  That’s right.

                  Me:
                  Ok. I see.

                  “So uncomfortable, isn’t it?”

                  No. But I can tell there’s a lot of uncomfortable deniers out there getting all squirmy at me trying to pin them down.

                  “Real balanced justice is so much harder than one-sided inquisitorial charges and allegations. I know.”

                  If you want justice this is the perfect way to get it.
                  Imagine what would happen if you could prove that the Jews were actually deported instead of dying. It exonerates the Nazi regime of the hideous crimes it is accused of. Isn’t that justice?

                  “Time for you to hug a puppy, I think… ;-)”

                  I hug my dog anyway.

                  Look, just admit that you and the other deniers don’t have anything. It’ll make things easier on you.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 3:45 am

                • You wrote: “Look, just admit that you and the other deniers don’t have anything. It’ll make things easier on you.”

                  Do Holocaust deniers make money off denial the way that Holohoaxers make money off their books and the lecture circuit? No, deniers go to prison for 5 years or more.

                  Do Jews make trillions of dollars off their Holohoax books, their lectures, and their movies? Yes, the Holohoax is a guaranteed source of money.

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 16, 2016 @ 5:42 am

                • You wrote: “Look, just admit that you and the other deniers don’t have anything. It’ll make things easier on you.”

                  “Do Holocaust deniers make money off denial the way that Holohoaxers make money off their books and the lecture circuit? No, deniers go to prison for 5 years or more.”

                  Well, as Wolf says, denial is part of the “Shoah Business.” Books, movies on-line, lectures, donations, you name it. CODOH, Stormfront, etc. all hit me up for donations.
                  I’ll grant you it probably doesn’t make as much money as regular history. I’ve never seen a denier book in a regular bookstore.
                  Let’s face it, obviously the money exists for denial to continue.

                  “Do Jews make trillions of dollars off their Holohoax books, their lectures, and their movies?”

                  Is that an exaggeration or are you serious? Where do you get trillions?

                  “Yes, the Holohoax is a guaranteed source of money.”

                  People are interested in history. People will pay for it.

                  This is actually irrelevant to my point.

                  If denier mythology states that instead of dying the Jews were evacuated to the East then it is up to them to prove it.

                  Wouldn’t that end the whole thing? Real, relevant proof that the Jews didn’t die but wound up in camps in the Soviet Union?

                  Isn’t that what deniers ask from real historians?
                  Proof? Why shouldn’t I hold you to the same standard?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 6:14 am

                • You wrote: “I’ve never seen a denier book in a regular bookstore.” Denier books are sold in regular bookstores, but you have to ask for them; they are kept in a back room. I am a regular customer at a certain bookstore, which I can’t name. If I ask for a denier book, they will go to the back and bring it out for me. They can’t display these books in the store because of people like Debra Lipstadt. I wrote about how she went to bookstores and had David Irving’s books taken off the shelf:

                  https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/deborah-lipstadt-who-defeated-hard-core-holocaust-denial-now-worries-about-soft-core-denial/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 16, 2016 @ 7:07 am

                • “wrote about how she went to bookstores and had David Irving’s books taken off the shelf”

                  Lipstadt does not engage Holocaust deniers.
                  Where is the proof she went to bookstores and demanded the books be taken off the shelves?

                  I do know that Irving disrupted one of her lectures. Maybe this is where the confusion stems from.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 10:07 am

                • I got a question here. Are you saying this gal can walk into like “B. Dalton book sellers” and they’ll yank holo denial books at here command?

                  Comment by Tim — March 16, 2016 @ 10:18 am

                • No, Tim, I don’t believe that at all.

                  Lipstadt refuses to debate Holocaust deniers, why would she draw attention to it by going to bookstores and demanding said books be taken off the shelves?

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 10:21 am

                • I’m just going by what I read here. I mean some people do carry that kinda weight. So I didn’t think it was beyond the realm of possibilities. The only issue I had there was,if she in fact could do that,the deniers would be able to say,”what’s she trying to hide,that she doesn’t want people to know”. I’m not a denier,but there are some things with this topic that I do question. All the way back to the bible,man has made war on his fellow man. The non combatants seem to be the ones that always get screwed for whatever reasons. The Jews are no different. The whole thing here,is I take issue with some of the stories the survivors tell and the judicial system that prosecuted the offenders . I don’t really pay attention to the numbers involved here,basically because neither side can agree on a concrete set of numbers. Both sides keep changing the numbers. Like I said,it’s the survivor stories. Some of them are just doctored up to no end. They’re just to incredible for me to accept. It’s kinda like when I went to Nam. Most of history would have a person believe the American military machine was made up of “murdering,blood thirsty savages. The most I ever encountered were my people either hitting or being verbally abusive towards the dinks. Unless they were shooting at us,we never murdered any non combatants. That’s the way holo history comes across to me. You have to examine it throughly. I’ll admit before I found this site,I was ignorant as hell on the subject. I thought this was a Jew hater website. I found out this site is a valuable tool for holo education. Both sides are given the opportunity to present their arguments. Sometimes I’ll side with the deniers. Other times I won’t. I apply that same thing towards the folks that say ,”it did happen”. They say,”history is written,by those who write it”. A lot of times the history books can be biased. They expect us to accept what they say. We had a saying back in my hippie days. “Question everything “. This site gives me that chance. The history books are giving second hand accounts. This site here,I can get first hand accounts. Wolf. He was a boy when he was in the prisons,but he was there. So he’d be a witness who was there. Like I said, I’m just trying to get to the bottom of this topic. I don’t think that’ll ever happen. If man is still on this planet,500 to a 1,000 years from now,the holo argument will probably still be going on. In the meantime,I’ll try to come to my conclusions best that I can.

                  Comment by Tim — March 16, 2016 @ 11:37 am

                • I really don’t have much time for survivor’s stories, Tim. I think the older they get the blurrier the memories become.
                  I will take stock in statements collected after the war or a few years after the war.
                  I’ve never read anything by Primo Levi or Eli Weisel. I’m not going to start now.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 3:41 pm

                • I kinda figured that they might have a problem with recalling certain events. I really try to stay away from saying that because people would accuse me of calling them a liar. That’s why I have a problem with them putting Krauts on trial that worked the camps. I know some people on their age brackets have memories that are sharp as a tack. Others have a hard time. From where I sit,it’s easy for prosecuting attorneys to suggest certain things to the survivors,just so the attorney can stick another feather in his war bonnet. Think about it. Successfully prosecuting a war criminal on a case that is more than a half century old,would look damn good on a resume. Same holds true for a defense attorney. Look at Johnny Cochran. Successfully got O J Simpson off and that put him on the map. Hell when people find a good defense attorney,they nickname him Johnny Cochran. No matter what people may or may not think about this subject. Whatever side their on. Justice will never be totally served. I’m a believer. With my beliefs,no matter what the court system may hand out. No matter if the accused is truly guilty. What the court system gives them,is nothing in comparison to what they’re gonna get when they stand before their creator. If they are truly guilty,the Ol man upstairs is gonna be a bit pissed. The survivors stories make up a great deal of the history here,but the survivors are passing their stories to the historians. Like I’ve always said,” history is written by those who write it”. To me it seems if a person is dealing with a point on the timeline in mans history,common sense is gonna play a big part here. You and Jimbo go at it like a couple of junkyard dogs,but I do see where the both of you apply common sense to your argument. That’s why I like this site. I may have a hard time buying into a story from this situation that I read on here. Sometimes I’ll read a comment someone has left and then I can draw my own conclusion to my question. Simply because a person applies common sense to either prove or disprove. I got a question here. What question deals with is a situation that did occur. The fact I speak of is this. Has anyone or any group of people ever recognized the prisoners that were exposed to extremes of temperatures or pressure chambers in the prisons? I ask because I’ve heard it said that the information we got on those experiments after the war,helped us put a man in space and the moon. I know it’s been said that at the time,the nazis were doing it for reasons of trying to make sure they would know what their pilots might be exposed to. I’m just saying,those test subjects helped answer some questions we may have had about space flight,in order to make sure our astronauts are given every edge for survival when they leave the earth. I’m pretty sure no one has names of the individual test subjects,but I think they should be recognized as a group. That’s just my take on it

                  Comment by Tim — March 16, 2016 @ 6:25 pm

                • I disagree with these trials as well, Tim.
                  How do you determine guilt over a crime that happened over 70 years ago?

                  No, these men and women need to be interviewed for history’s sake, even if their memories are blurry. The time for this type of justice has long passed. Now only the history these people witnessed remains. It needs recording before it is too late.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 6:45 pm

                • Jeff quote No, these men and women need to be interviewed for history’s sake, even if their memories are blurry.

                  Jeff…these people don’t have a blurry past they have a sullied past.. because most of the things they say are not even true they’re made up of a collection of stories from other people and they’re peddling them off as truth so these people should be put in jail for the lies that they’ve been telling for all these years and for ruining many people’s lives for the lies they have told. Think about all the Germans that have suffered because of the Holohoax lies and what’s happened to them many deaths and many ruin lives I don’t know how anybody could be happy with something like that.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 16, 2016 @ 6:51 pm

                • I’m talking about the elderly guards, medics, etc. that Germany is putting on trial to assuage it’s pathetic guilt over allowing many Nazis to escape justice after the war, Jim.

                  I’m not talking about the survivors.

                  Historians need to interview both groups.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 6:54 pm

                • Jeff…. I’m a little confused on what you said
                  Quote I’m talking about the elderly guards, medics, etc. that Germany is putting on trial to assuage it’s pathetic guilt over allowing many Nazis to escape justice after the war…

                  I don’t see what the issue is with the guards and Germans in particular. How about dealing with the allies and the human atrocities that they committed against the Germans don’t you think they should be put on trial for the war crimes that they did against innocent German men women and children but yet the Holohuxsters here have not made any comments about what should be done about the allies and the criminals that existed within their ranks.
                  Alledged Jew murderers count but German murders don’t. More Germans innocent Germans were killed in the war then Jews but the Jews get all the attention.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 16, 2016 @ 7:13 pm

                • Jim, let it go.
                  The men responsible for the bombing campaigns died decades ago.

                  What I was saying was instead of putting the elderly on trial to record their memory for history.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 8:22 pm

                • That’s what I’m talking about. The two of you go it like wild cats,but you both bring something to the table. Yes record what happened back then,but present in the court of world opinion. If we had something concrete like DNA evidence,I’d say knock yourselves the hell out,but we don’t. Jimbo made a good point about how their memories are tainted. Jimbo said they’re passing off false stories due to what other people are filling their heads with. Im looking at the prosecuting attorneys filling these peoples heads with misleading information,just so the prosecuting attorney can secure a victory. You both made valid points. That’s why I’m here. To get both sides of the coin. I don’t wanna sound like a broken record,but have either of you ever heard where the Jews that were subjected to the extremes of temperatures and pressure chambers ever been recognized,because the test results helped us put a man on the moon

                  Comment by Tim — March 16, 2016 @ 7:24 pm

                • Steven Spielberg. It’s a cash cow for him!

                  Comment by Tim — March 16, 2016 @ 10:00 am

                • Jeff wrote: “So, mass graves at Belzec, piles of ash, the bodies at Majdanek, none of these things ring a bell?”

                  Yes and the bell tells me that people die during wars and epidemics.

                  And not even a tiny fragment of the exterminationist allegations was proved with dead bodies or other physical evidence, and you know it. Ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong… See a ear doctor without delay if you still fail to hear that one.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m unaccustomed to people having a theory and then unable or unwilling to prove it.”

                  No mirrors at home???

                  Jeff wrote: “Deniers: The Germans deported the Jews to camps inside the Soviet Union instead of killing them. Me: Ok. Do you have any proof of that? Deniers: No.”

                  What about this one?

                  Believers: The Germans murdered millions of Jews in some concentration camps.

                  People with a brain: Do you have any proof of that?

                  Believers: Yes, we have extravagant stories told by Elie Wiesel and Yankel Wiernick, empty cans of Zyklon B, pics of typhic corpses, crematory ovens, and shrunken heads.

                  People with a brain: You could have made an effort to do better than that…

                  Jeff wrote: “Imagine what would happen if you could prove that the Jews were actually deported instead of dying. It exonerates the Nazi regime of the hideous crimes it is accused of. Isn’t that justice?”

                  To me, the Nazi regime was exonerated from the day I examined the lousy ‘evidence’ brought by the Nuremberg prosecutors and their academic heirs to prove their case. What a good laugh that was!! Moving memory.

                  Comment by hermie — March 16, 2016 @ 8:20 am

                • “Yes and the bell tells me that people die during wars and epidemics.”

                  They die even faster when you shoot them or gas them.

                  “And not even a tiny fragment of the exterminationist allegations was proved with dead bodies or other physical evidence, and you know it.
                  Ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong… See a ear doctor without delay if you still fail to hear that one.”

                  I’m thinking you need to see a psychiatrist for all of conspiracy fantasies.
                  Perhaps you need a CAT scan as well.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m unaccustomed to people having a theory and then unable or unwilling to prove it.”

                  “No mirrors at home???”

                  Hey pot.
                  The kettle called.
                  You’re black.

                  Jeff wrote: “Imagine what would happen if you could prove that the Jews were actually deported instead of dying. It exonerates the Nazi regime of the hideous crimes it is accused of. Isn’t that justice?”

                  “To me, the Nazi regime was exonerated from the day I examined the lousy ‘evidence’ brought by the Nuremberg prosecutors and their academic heirs to prove their case. What a good laugh that was!! Moving memory.”

                  I’m sure it was a special day for you.
                  Did you write that in your diary?

                  So, basically this is where we are:

                  You have no evidence that the Jews were transported East.
                  So, you are conceding that point. Deniers have no evidence so their idea or theory has no weight.
                  Therefore, the whole idea that the Nazis spared the Jews is nonsense.
                  I’m glad we cleared that up.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 10:17 am

                • Jeff wrote: “They die even faster when you shoot them or gas them.”

                  But people killed by epidemics and other war-linked causes are of no benefit to a country’s or a special interest group’s war propaganda, hence the benefit of claiming instead that those people were mass murdered by your enemy of the day- by definition, an incarnation of evil. Congratulations! You’ve just understood the purpose of atrocity propaganda.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m thinking you need to see a psychiatrist for all of conspiracy fantasies.”

                  The connection between the lack of physical evidence for the exterminationist claims and conspiracy fantasies? Diversion detected…

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m sure it was a special day for you. Did you write that in your diary?”

                  Yes, I did. But only in the form of code words.

                  Jeff wrote: “So, basically this is where we are: You have no evidence that the Jews were transported East. So, you are conceding that point. Deniers have no evidence so their idea or theory has no weight. Therefore, the whole idea that the Nazis spared the Jews is nonsense. I’m glad we cleared that up.”

                  I like when you celebrate imaginary victories. So Lipstadtian…

                  Feel free to apply these new evidential standards to your dear ‘Nazi gas chambers’.😉

                  If you can’t give me the precise new addresses of the 2 million people displaced (exchanged) after the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922, the survival of these people is nonsense. Hysterical, isn’t it? I can understand the Holohoaxsters’ fierce refusal to accept a normal burden of proof now…

                  Comment by hermie — March 16, 2016 @ 8:46 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “They die even faster when you shoot them or gas them.”

                  “But people killed by epidemics and other war-linked causes are of no benefit to a country’s or a special interest group’s war propaganda, hence the benefit of claiming instead that those people were mass murdered by your enemy of the day- by definition, an incarnation of evil. Congratulations! You’ve just understood the purpose of atrocity propaganda.”

                  Gee, thanks for the lesson, professor.
                  The allies didn’t need to make anything up, the Germans left a mess wherever they went.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m thinking you need to see a psychiatrist for all of conspiracy fantasies.”

                  “The connection between the lack of physical evidence for the exterminationist claims and conspiracy fantasies? Diversion detected…”

                  Not really. I just think you’re looney tunes with your Zionists obsession and your hatred of Jews.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m sure it was a special day for you. Did you write that in your diary?”

                  “Yes, I did. But only in the form of code words.”

                  Why? Are you afraid some Jew was going to break in and read your diary?
                  That’s why I think you need a psychiatrist and maybe a CAT scan.

                  Jeff wrote: “So, basically this is where we are: You have no evidence that the Jews were transported East. So, you are conceding that point. Deniers have no evidence so their idea or theory has no weight. Therefore, the whole idea that the Nazis spared the Jews is nonsense. I’m glad we cleared that up.”

                  “I like when you celebrate imaginary victories. So Lipstadtian…”

                  Doesn’t seem imaginary to me. I’ve asked you to prove something, you can’t. Plain and simple.

                  “Feel free to apply these new evidential standards to your dear ‘Nazi gas chambers’. ;-)”

                  Ok. The next time you ask for proof I’ll just tell you I don’t have to prove anything.
                  I call it the “Denier Method-If you can’t prove it, tell them you don’t have to.”

                  “If you can’t give me the precise new addresses of the 2 million people displaced (exchanged) after the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922, the survival of these people is nonsense. Hysterical, isn’t it? I can understand the Holohoaxsters’ fierce refusal to accept a normal burden of proof now…”

                  I’m not asking for asking for addresses.
                  I’m asking for proof where a large number of people went.
                  Look, you only have the Germans to blame for this. We have railway schedules, the Hoefle Telegram, the Koehrer Report. All this stuff on paper.
                  Are you telling me that the Germans with their need for orderly train schedules wouldn’t have schedules for the deported Jews?
                  That’s ridiculous. The SS needed to coordinate any mass deportations to the USSR with the military because the military needed those trains as well.
                  I’ve already explained the need for guards, commanders, building materials, etc.
                  So, this idea there is no paper trail is ridiculous.
                  So, sally forth, brave deniers. Find the paper trail.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 10:11 pm

                • Jeff I gave you the links to all the Holocaust Handbooks which I’m reading trough one at a time….you obviously don’t read them and are happy with all your Jew propaganda.
                  Here is the link to the Treblinka book that at the end of the book it talks about the moving the Jews eastward….
                  https://archive.org/stream/Holocaust_Handbooks/08_Treblinka_Extermination_Camp_or_Transit_Camp_2nd_ed#page/n19/mode/2up

                  All the true facts are there but you and the other HoloHuxsters refuse to read it….your loss.

                  Here is the link to all of them for those interested…
                  https://archive.org/details/Holocaust_Handbooks

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 17, 2016 @ 9:20 am

                • Jimbo. Do they have an iPhone app for this site. Is there any way I can open these docs in the “book” app on my iPhone? Thanks

                  Comment by Tim — March 17, 2016 @ 2:04 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “The allies didn’t need to make anything up, the Germans left a mess wherever they went.”

                  Of course, the Allies needed atrocity propaganda. They inaugurated a new type of warfare, an unparalleled war against civilians on a massive scale, a war in which civilians were prime targets instead of collateral damages. As the Daily Mirror put it at that time (April 25, 1942), ‘the RAF have opened a new era in aerial warfare.’ That war against civilians was quite embarrassing for a side claiming it was fighting for civilization. Indeed, the current laws of warfare in those days specified things such as: ‘even in the cases allowed by International Right, you must always, when inflicting reprisals, respect the laws of humanity. The inhumane behavior of the enemy doesn’t give you the right to imitate him, and you would dishonor yourself by following him in the cruelties where ignorance or passion dragged him. The reprisals for barbarous treatments thus cannot be operated by using barbarity yourself.’ (Les Lois de la Guerre et de la Neutralité, F. Verraès, p.127, 1906). As you can see, even the reprisal trick couldn’t save the Allies’ deceptive motive from the consequences of the Allied war against civilians on their own honor and reputation, but atrocity propaganda could at least divert public opinion from the barbarous actions of their own armies. Atrocity propaganda successfully obliterated the ghastly destruction caused by the Allied obliteration bombing.

                  A need even more crucial when you’re in the bloody Bolsheviks’ bed…

                  Jeff wrote: “Not really. I just think you’re looney tunes with your Zionists obsession and your hatred of Jews.”

                  So that was indeed an unconnected dodging. Glad we could clear that up…

                  Jeff wrote: “Ok. The next time you ask for proof I’ll just tell you I don’t have to prove anything.”

                  You’re the accuser. So you’re the one on whom the burden of proof lies, whether you like it or not. Your stubborn refusal to accept a normal burden of proof is becoming hilarious.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m asking for proof where a large number of people went.”

                  Are the Holocaustians’ 42,500 camps and ghettoes not enough for you? Want more?

                  Jeff wrote: “So, this idea there is no paper trail is ridiculous. So, sally forth, brave deniers. Find the paper trail.”

                  What would you do with a paper trail anyway? What kind of paper trail about that could satisfy people for who inocuous terms such as ‘resettled in the east’ necessarily mean ‘slaughtered’ and ‘gassed’? Assuming that the Allies and the Soviets were stupid enough to keep enemy papers contradicting their own propaganda, this will perhaps be a very interesting field of research for the years to come. Probably hard times coming for the reality deniers.

                  And I note that you’ve completely ignored the links to Kues’ article I posted above. Interesting in itself…😉

                  Comment by hermie — March 17, 2016 @ 5:23 am

                • “Of course, the Allies needed atrocity propaganda. They inaugurated a new type of warfare, an unparalleled war against civilians on a massive scale, a war in which civilians were prime targets instead of collateral damages.”

                  Actually the Germans inaugurated this when they started bombing Polish cities and towns after the invasion.
                  Of course, the Germans possessed nothing like the heavy bombers that the allies rolled out later. I’m sure if they did they would have used them as well.

                  “As the Daily Mirror put it at that time (April 25, 1942), ‘the RAF have opened a new era in aerial warfare.’ That war against civilians was quite embarrassing for a side claiming it was fighting for civilization. Indeed, the current laws of warfare in those days specified things such as: ‘even in the cases allowed by International Right, you must always, when inflicting reprisals, respect the laws of humanity. The inhumane behavior of the enemy doesn’t give you the right to imitate him, and you would dishonor yourself by following him in the cruelties where ignorance or passion dragged him. The reprisals for barbarous treatments thus cannot be operated by using barbarity yourself.’ (Les Lois de la Guerre et de la Neutralité, F. Verraès, p.127, 1906). As you can see, even the reprisal trick couldn’t save the Allies’ deceptive motive from the consequences of the Allied war against civilians on their own honor and reputation, but atrocity propaganda could at least divert public opinion from the barbarous actions of their own armies. Atrocity propaganda successfully obliterated the ghastly destruction caused by the Allied obliteration bombing.”

                  Naturally the Germans were better at this sort of thing on the ground. The mass shooting of Jews, the wild partisan hunts that killed more civilians than partisans, the mass deportations of Polish Jews and civilians, the forced labor squads that snatched civilians and sent them to Germany for labor, the deliberate mass starvation of Soviet POWs, I could go on and on.

                  “A need even more crucial when you’re in the bloody Bolsheviks’ bed…”

                  The Nazis climbed into bed with the Soviets first.
                  Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty ring any bells?

                  War does make for strange bedfellows.

                  Jeff wrote: “Not really. I just think you’re looney tunes with your Zionists obsession and your hatred of Jews.”

                  “So that was indeed an unconnected dodging. Glad we could clear that up…”

                  Happy to oblige.

                  Jeff wrote: “Ok. The next time you ask for proof I’ll just tell you I don’t have to prove anything.”

                  “You’re the accuser. So you’re the one on whom the burden of proof lies, whether you like it or not. Your stubborn refusal to accept a normal burden of proof is becoming hilarious.”

                  I don’t get this whole “accuser” thing.
                  Deniers have an alternate theory of what happened to the Jews during the war. It is up to THEM to prove this alternate theory is right.

                  Jeff wrote: “I’m asking for proof where a large number of people went.”

                  “Are the Holocaustians’ 42,500 camps and ghettoes not enough for you? Want more?”

                  No, I’m fine.
                  The problem with you using the whole 42,5000 camps is apparently you think all of these camps were filled exclusively with Jews.
                  This number includes all of the camps that the SA/SS ever operated, including many camps that closed before the war started. It includes labor camps set up for foreign workers, POW camps, satellite camps, transit camps, etc. Oddly, the concentration camp system expanded into many satellite camps in 1943-1944 as the whole system became more decentralized.

                  Jeff wrote: “So, this idea there is no paper trail is ridiculous. So, sally forth, brave deniers. Find the paper trail.”

                  “What would you do with a paper trail anyway? What kind of paper trail about that could satisfy people for who inocuous terms such as ‘resettled in the east’ necessarily mean ‘slaughtered’ and ‘gassed’?”

                  Well, it would lend credence to denier claims.

                  “Assuming that the Allies and the Soviets were stupid enough to keep enemy papers contradicting their own propaganda, this will perhaps be a very interesting field of research for the years to come. Probably hard times coming for the reality deniers.”

                  Yeah, you get back to me when that happens.

                  “And I note that you’ve completely ignored the links to Kues’ article I posted above. Interesting in itself… ;-)”

                  What link?

                  Did you know that Kues has gone into hiding?
                  Apparently he is afraid that the Holocaust Mafia put a hit out on him.
                  Maybe he is afraid of being eaten by feral Jews.

                  I think that is a cautionary tale for you, Hermie.
                  It just goes to show you what happens when you have weird obsessions.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 6:11 am

                • I think this is the article you are referring to:

                  http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2010/volume_2/number_2/evidence_for_the_presence_of_gassed_jews.php

                  Kues is so funny.
                  I hope no feral Jews have caught him.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 6:37 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Actually the Germans inaugurated this when they started bombing Polish cities and towns after the invasion.”

                  I knew you would come with the bombings on Warsaw. You, reality deniers, are always so predictable. Some kind of moronic binar robots.

                  A number of British bombings on German cities targeted civilans and had no other purpose than killing as many German civilians as possible. The German bombings on Warsaw and Rotterdam for instance were military bombings intended to capture those cities, and the civilians killed by such bombings were collateral damages, not prime targets. Such military bombings were allowed by the Hague Convention of October 1907 for good reasons.

                  Embarrassing when wannabe-heroes-and alleged gooddoers make as if two wrongs made a right, as the British Under-Secretary of Air Cpt Balfour did when he tried to justify the destruction of Lubeck and other German cities before the House of Commons in April 1943.

                  Your history in a vacuum severely spanked once again.

                  Jeff wrote: “Of course, the Germans possessed nothing like the heavy bombers that the allies rolled out later. I’m sure if they did they would have used them as well.”

                  As Hitler was very reluctant to allow the tiny reprisal bombings on London, I doubt he would have wanted to perpetrate an aerial genocide similar to the British one if he had been able to do it.

                  Jeff wrote: ” I could go on and on.”

                  Yes, you could. The imagination of Allied propagandists was/is inexhaustible…

                  Funny to see that you both claim the Allies didn’t atrocity propaganda and get their best inventions out of pocket as soon as their murderous behavior during WW2 is mentioned in a debate. Your robotic reaction is the best refutation of your claim that the Allies didn’t need atrocity propaganda.😉

                  Jeff wrote: “The Nazis climbed into bed with the Soviets first. Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty ring any bells?”

                  Oh yes, a non-aggression pact is the very same thing as fighting a war together during several years. Just another one of your countless distortions. Sorry for catching you with your pants down once again. Be careful not to get cold.

                  Jeff wrote: “I don’t get this whole “accuser” thing. Deniers have an alternate theory of what happened to the Jews during the war. It is up to THEM to prove this alternate theory is right.”

                  Of course you get it. If someone accuses somebody else of having perpetrated a crime or another, HE is the accuser and the burden of proof lies on him. This is how normal justice works. For a very good reason, which is that somebody can not prove a negative.

                  An alternate theory? An alternate theory to the theory imposed by the victors of a war by reversing the normal burden of proof in order to depict themselves as the ‘good guys’ very easily. What I request from you and the other Holohoaxsters just amounts to finally putting things upside up and downside down. No need to play the virgins pretending not to understand how normal my request is.

                  Jeff wrote: “No, I’m fine. The problem with you using the whole 42,5000 camps is apparently you think all of these camps were filled exclusively with Jews.”

                  Filled with Jews or not, the FACT is there was vastly enough room to transport and house as many Jews as needed in eastern Europe in the event of mass territorial eviction, unlike what you confidently claimed some weeks ago.

                  Jeff wrote: “Did you know that Kues has gone into hiding? Apparently he is afraid that the Holocaust Mafia put a hit out on him.”

                  Very funny to see the alleged defenders of freedom of speech rejoice like young girls on their first school day every time a revisionist is imprisoned or forced to go into hiding. What a gang of disgusting hypocrites and deceivers you and yours are.

                  Comment by hermie — March 17, 2016 @ 8:53 am

                • “I knew you would come with the bombings on Warsaw. You, reality deniers, are always so predictable. Some kind of moronic binar robots”

                  Who said anything about Warsaw?

                  “The Nazi Luftwaffe conducted the Polish campaign with complete contempt for the international laws and ideas of humanity. Since the very 1 September German air force targeted Warsaw, Poznan, Gdynia, Grudziadz, Bydgoszcz, Ciechanow, Plonsk, Plock, Kutno, Radomsko, Czestochowa, Kielce, Radom, Olkusz, Lodz, Cracow, Jaslo and Lublin, not to mention numerous smaller towns and villages. So, there were bombed places, which were not fortified and defended, and therefore legally were open cities according to the international laws. Bombs were dropped on undefended objects and defenceless civilians. The case of Sulejow is another significant example.

                  The town of Sulejow was bombed for the first time on 4 September around 17:00. With 15-minute intervals Luftwaffe squadrons staged three air raids, dropping bombs and incineraries on residential quarters, and showering the streets with machine-gun fire. The raids continued on 5 and 6 September. Just like in case of Wielun, the town was not defended and no Polish troops were deployed there. Those bombings were nothing less than a planned and purposely perpetrated destruction of the city and its population. In result of the bombings about 1,500 people died, and the town was destroyed in 80%. Streets of the town, and roads in the vicinity, were covered with bodies of killed civilians, whose burial took two weeks.”

                  So like Holocaust Deniers, sipping the National Socialist Kool-Aid.
                  According to Deniers, the Nazi invasion of Poland was actually the precursor to the hippy “Love Ins” so common in the 1960’s. The SS brought love and light, symbolized by the candy and puppies they handed out to the adoring populace. Tales of Nazi atrocities (like the alleged Operation Tannenberg, the operation to eliminate Polish Elite) were misconstrued, this was actually Operation Hug a Pole. The nasty Zionist/Jewish/Bolshevists lied to the public about these Operation Hug a Poles, saying that this was actually an attempt at genocide.
                  Poor Germans. Always so misunderstood.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 7:47 pm

                • Jeff I take it you have no idea why the Germans went into Poland? Here is a little insight… they went in there to rescue the German people that were being killed by the Poles that was a good enough reason to go in there don’t you think?
                  There were probably 50 thousand Germans that were killed and that’s why Hitler went into Poland.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 17, 2016 @ 8:14 pm

                • “Jeff I take it you have no idea why the Germans went into Poland? Here is a little insight… they went in there to rescue the German people that were being killed by the Poles that was a good enough reason to go in there don’t you think?
                  There were probably 50 thousand Germans that were killed and that’s why Hitler went into Poland.”

                  If so, it didn’t bother Hitler all that much until the Poles became stubborn over Danzig and the Corrider. As I’ve stated, Nazi Germany and Poland had a very good relationship during the 30’s, up until the Spring of 1939.
                  Oddly, the relationship between Poland and the Weimar Republic was very strained. Part of it was due to the way the the Poles treated, most of it was due to the loss of German territory after World War I.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 8:43 pm

                • “A number of British bombings on German cities targeted civilans and had no other purpose than killing as many German civilians as possible.”

                  You mean like Berlin?
                  Berlin was the Capitol city of an enemy nation, a center of communications and the military, therefore a legitimate military target.
                  Dresden?
                  While a controversial target the Germans were manufacturing military hardware there, including (if memory serves) optical sights for tanks. It was also a major railway used to move troops to the front line.

                  “The German bombings on Warsaw and Rotterdam for instance were military bombings intended to capture those cities, and the civilians killed by such bombings were collateral damages”

                  I noticed, of course, you left out the towns the Germans bombed in Poland.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 8:15 pm

                • “The imagination of Allied propagandists was/is inexhaustible.”

                  As is your imagination.
                  What was it?
                  Was it that the British and French allowed Hitler his conquests in the 30’s in order to lure him into war?

                  Was it the Zionists that were trying to start a war to regain Israel?

                  All of these? None of these? The whole conspiracy jibber jabber is hard to swallow.
                  As for the rest of your comments:
                  I can’t read them anymore, the text on my phone is stretched so much I can’t read it. Your comment didn’t come through my e-mail so I had to hunt it down in the “Reply” section.
                  Undoubtedly it was more of the general Nazi apologizing, Jew bashing, Zionist conspiracy nonsense.
                  If you want to continue this conversation take it to the top of these replies or go to a new story.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 17, 2016 @ 8:37 pm

                • edit: “to see that you both claim the Allies didn’t need atrocity propaganda and get their best inventions out of your pocket” instead of “to see that you both claim the Allies didn’t atrocity propaganda and get their best inventions out of pocket”

                  Comment by hermie — March 17, 2016 @ 8:56 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Who said anything about Warsaw?”

                  I assumed that was what you had in mind when you talked about bombing Polish cities.

                  Jeff wrote: “The Nazi Luftwaffe conducted the Polish campaign with complete contempt for the international laws and ideas of humanity. Since the very 1 September German air force targeted Warsaw, Poznan, Gdynia, Grudziadz, Bydgoszcz, Ciechanow, Plonsk, Plock, Kutno, Radomsko, Czestochowa, Kielce, Radom, Olkusz, Lodz, Cracow, Jaslo and Lublin, not to mention numerous smaller towns and villages. So, there were bombed places, which were not fortified and defended, and therefore legally were open cities according to the international laws. Bombs were dropped on undefended objects and defenceless civilians.”

                  That’s what military campaigns are. And the total defeat of Poland’s armies within less than one month demonstrated how efficient that was. The intent of those bombings was military, not genocidal like the Allied bombings’ one. The victims were just collateral damages of the German Blitzkrieg, not prime targets of bloodthirsty Allied bombers. The intent of specific actions matters. And the Germans, unlike the Allied hypocrites, did not claim that they were fighting for civilization, love, friendship between peoples, cute puppies, and all the other gay deceptive slogans coined by Allied propagandists.

                  Jeff wrote: “According to Deniers, the Nazi invasion of Poland was actually the precursor to the hippy “Love Ins” so common in the 1960’s.”

                  Distorting other’s arguments is a well-known fallacy. Too obviously a fraud for me. Try something else.

                  The invasion of Poland was the inescapable consequence of the choices made by the military junta heading Poland in those days. Greedy for additional German lands and boosted by the British ‘license for war against Germany’ (Anglo-Polish military agreement), Smigly- Rydz’s clique brought the situation to a point where peace was patently no longer possible. Future president of Israel Chaim Weizmann didn’t declare war against Germany 4 days before the invasion of Poland for nothing. The Polish delegates at the Zionist Congress of August 1939 were also allowed to go back home earlier because nobody failed to see what was coming. Perfidious Albion (Britain) didn’t care more about Poland than it had cared about Belgium 25 years earlier. That was just a continuation of Britain’s secular ‘balance of power’ policy, with Perfidious Albion obliterating any emerging European power, any threat to its own hegemony, by war on any excuse. WW2 history in a vacuum, telling the events of WW2 only from September 1, 1939 (except for a few carefully-chosen and partially-distorted previous events) is a gross distortion of reality. But a convenient lie has always been better than an inconvenient & disturbing truth, isn’t it?

                  Jeff wrote: “As I’ve stated, Nazi Germany and Poland had a very good relationship during the 30’s, up until the Spring of 1939.”

                  False. The relationship between Nazi Germany and the Polish military dictatorship was good until 1935, when Pilsudski died. From that day, the relationship between Germany and Poland got worse and worse until the day when Britain decided (under US pressure) that it was time for war (March 1939). From that day, the relationship between Germany and Poland became flatly execrable, with an immediate stop of the German-Polish negotiations and an escalation of Polish provocations toward Germany. Britain hadn’t built a world empire by facilitating peace through agreements with military juntas like the one heading Poland in 1939. That’s ridiculous. Britain had built a world empire by getting wars of obliteration against its main rivals through military agreements with other powers. On the British side, WW1 and WW2 were just a continuation of that policy. Claiming that Britain provided Poland with a military pledge in the interest of peace in Europe is ridiculous beyond everything…

                  Comment by hermie — March 18, 2016 @ 8:56 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Who said anything about Warsaw?”

                  “I assumed that was what you had in mind when you talked about bombing Polish cities.”

                  Well, that’s what you get for assuming.

                  Jeff wrote: “The Nazi Luftwaffe conducted the Polish campaign with complete contempt for the international laws and ideas of humanity. Since the very 1 September German air force targeted Warsaw, Poznan, Gdynia, Grudziadz, Bydgoszcz, Ciechanow, Plonsk, Plock, Kutno, Radomsko, Czestochowa, Kielce, Radom, Olkusz, Lodz, Cracow, Jaslo and Lublin, not to mention numerous smaller towns and villages. So, there were bombed places, which were not fortified and defended, and therefore legally were open cities according to the international laws. Bombs were dropped on undefended objects and defenceless civilians.”

                  “That’s what military campaigns are. And the total defeat of Poland’s armies within less than one month demonstrated how efficient that was. The intent of those bombings was military, not genocidal like the Allied bombings’ one.”

                  Well, let’s see.
                  Deniers whine about the allied bombing campaign against “defenseless cities” yet the Luftwaffe bombed defenseless cities in Poland.
                  The difference is merely one of degree……and the alleged “defenseless” German cities were protected by German fighters and anti-aircraft batteries.

                  “The victims were just collateral damages of the German Blitzkrieg, not prime targets of bloodthirsty Allied bombers. The intent of specific actions matters.”

                  I fail to see the difference. If the Luftwaffe bombed an undefended city the intent is perfectly clear.

                  “And the Germans, unlike the Allied hypocrites, did not claim that they were fighting for civilization, love, friendship between peoples, cute puppies, and all the other gay deceptive slogans coined by Allied propagandists.”

                  Blah, blah, yawn.

                  Jeff wrote: “According to Deniers, the Nazi invasion of Poland was actually the precursor to the hippy “Love Ins” so common in the 1960’s.”

                  “Distorting other’s arguments is a well-known fallacy. Too obviously a fraud for me. Try something else.”

                  Why? It’s fun.

                  “The invasion of Poland was the inescapable consequence of the choices made by the military junta heading Poland in those days.”

                  I will agree that the “Colonels” leading Poland were rather naïve in thinking that the West would run to their rescue in case of a German invasion. I will also agree that the British guarantee of their borders made the Poles stubborn and unwilling to negotiate. However, the Poles considered the lands granted to them by The Versailles Treaty theirs. What country willingly gives up territory unless pressured to do so?

                  “Greedy for additional German lands”

                  Laughable. Proof, please.

                  “and boosted by the British ‘license for war against Germany’ (Anglo-Polish military agreement), Smigly- Rydz’s clique brought the situation to a point where peace was patently no longer possible.”

                  Well, again, they considered the territory granted to them as theirs. Now, I will concede that Hitler’s terms were very moderate (to start with) and based upon her position it was better for Poland to negotiate.

                  “Future president of Israel Chaim Weizmann didn’t declare war against Germany 4 days before the invasion of Poland for nothing. The Polish delegates at the Zionist Congress of August 1939 were also allowed to go back home earlier because nobody failed to see what was coming.”

                  Huh? How does Chaim declare war?
                  Why would anyone take that seriously?
                  Oh, I knew you’d work Zionists in there somewhere. You are so predictable.

                  “Perfidious Albion (Britain) didn’t care more about Poland than it had cared about Belgium 25 years earlier. That was just a continuation of Britain’s secular ‘balance of power’ policy, with Perfidious Albion obliterating any emerging European power, any threat to its own hegemony, by war on any excuse. WW2 history in a vacuum, telling the events of WW2 only from September 1, 1939 (except for a few carefully-chosen and partially-distorted previous events) is a gross distortion of reality. But a convenient lie has always been better than an inconvenient & disturbing truth, isn’t it?”

                  I agree it’s ridiculous to talk about WW II from September 1st is ridiculous.
                  It’s also ridiculous to say that Britain wanted war, considering that for the previous six years it desperately avoided it.
                  The British and French pressured the Poles up until August 31st to negotiate, even pressuring them into cancelling their mobilization. It’s a little hard to wage a proxy war when you are telling the person supposed to waging said war to stop mobilizing their troops.

                  Jeff wrote: “As I’ve stated, Nazi Germany and Poland had a very good relationship during the 30’s, up until the Spring of 1939.”

                  “False.”

                  True.

                  “The relationship between Nazi Germany and the Polish military dictatorship was good until 1935, when Pilsudski died. From that day, the relationship between Germany and Poland got worse and worse until the day when Britain decided (under US pressure) that it was time for war (March 1939).”

                  Again, laughable.
                  Unlike Czechoslovakia Hitler didn’t start by ranting and raving about alleged mistreatment of German minorities. He tried to negotiate with Poles but the British guarantee made the Poles stubborn.

                  “From that day, the relationship between Germany and Poland became flatly execrable, with an immediate stop of the German-Polish negotiations and an escalation of Polish provocations toward Germany. Britain hadn’t built a world empire by facilitating peace through agreements with military juntas like the one heading Poland in 1939. That’s ridiculous. Britain had built a world empire by getting wars of obliteration against its main rivals through military agreements with other powers. On the British side, WW1 and WW2 were just a continuation of that policy. Claiming that Britain provided Poland with a military pledge in the interest of peace in Europe is ridiculous beyond everything…”

                  Uh huh. Look, anytime you want to provide proof of what you saying feel free.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 10:52 am

                • I ain’t gonna argue about the Krauts bombing targets of no strategic value . I’m not sure what deniers have to do with is bombing targets in Germany that were of no value. Yeah,I’m referring to Dresden . That’s seperate from the holo issue for me. I feel someone should’ve ended up in court for that one. This ain’t the first time we’ve pulled a stunt like that. It’s happened in all wars. No one ever seems to get called down on it though. The picture of that little south Vietnamese girl running naked down the street in south Vietnam ,1972,is the perfect example. She got caught in a napalm strike in Trang Bang. They said it was a south Vietnamese pilot that bombed that section of south Vietnam. Whatever the case may be,I’ll guarantee you we were up to our eyeballs in that shit. Naturally they wouldn’t prosecute anybody for this. The dink that dropped the bomb,probably just got swept under the carpet. Out of sight. Out of mind. If they’re gonna prosecute the losers of a war,they need to do the same to winners if they broke laws

                  Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 11:37 am

                • Tim, Dresden did manufacture war materials. It also sat on a rail line that troops used to get to the front, making it a legitimate target.

                  Don’t get me wrong. What the British and US did was overkill.
                  But, what irks me is this idea that only the allies bombed cities. The Germans did it as well, they just lacked the true heavy bomber to cause the kind of destruction the US and British did.

                  I’m not excusing or condoning either side. But, this is the important part. As far as I know no Luftwaffe pilot or commander ever stood trial for simply bombing a city or village.
                  I’m also saying that putting them on trial would have been wrong.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 11:54 am

                • I understand that part that we were knocking out the ability for them to support their war machine,but a person can’t sit there and tell me that knocking out a neighborhood had any strategic value. I know back then neighborhoods sprung up around the factories. The factories pretty much supported the towns,so it would make sense for the workers to live close by,but I don’t see that being totally the case. If they want to say,”hey. We didn’t know the neighborhood was there”. If that’s the case then why did they bomb there? For shits and grins let’s say there was a tank factory in a certain section of the city . There’s a high civilian population there too. Intelligence should have indicated that too. So you need accurate bombing. They use the Norden Bombsight. That thing was far from accurate. Yeah it was for high level bombing. If you’re gonna do that,make damn sure you hit military targets. Hey before I went to Nam,I would’ve been cheering something like that. After Nam I figured out war is only one thing,bad. The wrong people always end up dead. If they wanted to be accurate with Dresden,send the fighter jocks. I know for a fact they can be damned accurate at low levels. They can deal a ton of damage. I’ve seen that first hand. We were in a bind big time up around An Loc. The fighter jocks came in off a carrier that was on station in the Tonkin. They dropped their shit about 250 to 300 yards from our position . The only injuries any of us received,was from the NVA. Navy jocks put their shit right on target. The dinks put up somewhat of fight. They had anti aircraft weapons. What really threw them was,the navy a little bit after day break. There were civilians in the area. There may very well have been a few that died,but for the most part they were unscathed. Plenty of pissed off dead VC and NVA. That was one day I actually felt good about the actual enemy being taken out. Pardon me for being presumptuous ,but I don’t think the guys the eliminated the entire city of Dresden,were too upset about killing all the civies. No they should’ve prosecuted the generals that thought bombing Dresden would be a cool idea. The lower ranking people were just following orders. Truth be known,they were probably never told of the civilian casualties . Good example there is Lt. Calley. Village of My Lai. He was handed his orders from higher up. I’ll admit that shit gotta a bit outta hand. Calley was an officer. He should’ve used better discretion and some common sense. However at the end of the day they dumped everything on him. The commanders were idiots. Westmoreland was fighting the war like it was WW2. That’s the kind of commanders we had . That’s why I take issue with Dreden. Our commanders are dumber than a bag of hammers. No. I’m still gonna say some of the commanders should’ve been court martialed. The only reason they weren’t was ,because we were sitting in the lap of victory. Public anger would’ve been huge

                  Comment by Tim — March 18, 2016 @ 1:38 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “Deniers whine about the allied bombing campaign against “defenseless cities” yet the Luftwaffe bombed defenseless cities in Poland. The difference is merely one of degree”

                  I don’t know if ‘deniers’ whine about that. My own approach to this topic is more amusement at the boundless hypocrisy of the alleged Crusaders of Civilization, Liberty, Love and Tolerance.

                  Jeff wrote: “I fail to see the difference. If the Luftwaffe bombed an undefended city the intent is perfectly clear.”

                  Yes, the intent is perfectly clear: the success and shortening of the German military campaign in Poland, with a prospect of peace with England and France after the cancellation of the main source of disorders in that area, i.e. the knockout of the Polish troublemaker. Perhaps that would have worked if Poland hadn’t been a mere excuse for war. It worked to some extent with France, the soft belly of the conspiracy for war in Europe, even if a quick military defeat was needed to formalize the French lack of enthusiasm for that war. To the French people of that time, a world war was more than an exciting adventure in distant lands. The memory of the suffering and destruction of WW1 was still very present in France.

                  Jeff wrote: “Why? It’s fun.”

                  Fun but too big to work with me.

                  Jeff wrote: “Well, again, they considered the territory granted to them as theirs. Now, I will concede that Hitler’s terms were very moderate (to start with) and based upon her position it was better for Poland to negotiate.”

                  Danzig was not a territory granted to the Poles as theirs. It was supposed a ‘free city’ under the League of Nations with economic prerogatives for Poland. Before the sudden end of the negotiations between Poland and Germany, Hitler had offered to maintain the economic prerogatives granted to Poland at Danzig. By the way, Poland didn’t really need Danzig anymore: Poland had built its own port city – Gdynia – in the 1920’s and 1930’s. Hitler had also offered to guarantee the Versailles borders of Poland, thus giving up permanently any retrieval of the German-populated area inside the Polish Korridor. Those very moderate demands, leaving all the territory granted to Poland untouched, were of course contingent on a few minor conditions, which were a railway/road through the Korridor (connecting East Prussia to the rest of Germany) and the return of Danzig to the Reich.

                  See how dumb the US-British-caused worsening of the relationship between Germany and Poland was now? A world war to prevent the political return of a German city to its legitimate owner and the construction of a connecting route through the ‘Polish’ Korridor? WTF? What kind of peace lovers would do that?

                  Jeff wrote: “Huh? How does Chaim declare war?”

                  With a letter to PM Chamberlain, published in most British newspapers under unambiguous titles such as ‘The Jews are on our side’.

                  Jeff wrote: “Why would anyone take that seriously?”

                  Ask this question to Hitler.

                  Jeff wrote: “The British and French pressured the Poles up until August 31st to negotiate, even pressuring them into cancelling their mobilization.”

                  They didn’t try hard enough. Visibly.

                  C’mon. Nothing would have been easier for France and England than making it clear to Poland that their common deal was broken if Poland didn’t cease provocations towards Germany.

                  Comment by hermie — March 18, 2016 @ 11:00 pm

                • “I don’t know if ‘deniers’ whine about that. My own approach to this topic is more amusement at the boundless hypocrisy of the alleged Crusaders of Civilization, Liberty, Love and Tolerance.”

                  My own approach mirrors yours except my amusement is directed at deniers who continue to suck down Nazi Kool-Aid.

                  Jeff wrote: “I fail to see the difference. If the Luftwaffe bombed an undefended city the intent is perfectly clear.”

                  “Yes, the intent is perfectly clear: the success and shortening of the German military campaign in Poland, with a prospect of peace with England and France after the cancellation of the main source of disorders in that area, i.e. the knockout of the Polish troublemaker.”

                  So, it’s OK for the Luftwaffe to bomb undefended cities and towns in order to shorten the war but it’s not OK for the British and US to do the same?

                  You understand “hypocrisy,” don’t you?

                  “Perhaps that would have worked if Poland hadn’t been a mere excuse for war. It worked to some extent with France, the soft belly of the conspiracy for war in Europe, even if a quick military defeat was needed to formalize the French lack of enthusiasm for that war. To the French people of that time, a world war was more than an exciting adventure in distant lands. The memory of the suffering and destruction of WW1 was still very present in France.”

                  As it was in Britain. The prospect of war horrified Chamberlain but Hitler’s violation of the Munich Agreement placed him in a precarious position. Public opinion turned against Chamberlain after Hitler made the remainder of Czechoslovakia a “protectorate.”

                  Jeff wrote: “Why? It’s fun.”

                  “Fun but too big to work with me.”

                  It’s still fun so I’m going to continue to do it.

                  Jeff wrote: “Well, again, they considered the territory granted to them as theirs. Now, I will concede that Hitler’s terms were very moderate (to start with) and based upon her position it was better for Poland to negotiate.”

                  “Danzig was not a territory granted to the Poles as theirs. It was supposed a ‘free city’ under the League of Nations with economic prerogatives for Poland. Before the sudden end of the negotiations between Poland and Germany, Hitler had offered to maintain the economic prerogatives granted to Poland at Danzig. By the way, Poland didn’t really need Danzig anymore: Poland had built its own port city – Gdynia – in the 1920’s and 1930’s. Hitler had also offered to guarantee the Versailles borders of Poland, thus giving up permanently any retrieval of the German-populated area inside the Polish Korridor. Those very moderate demands, leaving all the territory granted to Poland untouched, were of course contingent on a few minor conditions, which were a railway/road through the Korridor (connecting East Prussia to the rest of Germany) and the return of Danzig to the Reich.”

                  I honestly can’t say I disagree with anything you just said.
                  I agree that the stubbornness of the Poles contributed to the tensions in the area. But, the Poles were determined not to buckle under after seeing what German “guarantees” were worth. Hitler guaranteed the Czech borders as part of the Munich Agreement and violated that agreement. There was no reason to trust what Hitler said or did after that point.

                  “See how dumb the US-British-caused worsening of the relationship between Germany and Poland was now?”

                  The US caused this? Huh?

                  “A world war to prevent the political return of a German city to its legitimate owner and the construction of a connecting route through the ‘Polish’ Korridor? WTF? What kind of peace lovers would do that?”

                  The same “peace lovers” who saw Hitler’s willingness to violate agreements when it suited him.

                  Jeff wrote: “Huh? How does Chaim declare war?”

                  “With a letter to PM Chamberlain, published in most British newspapers under unambiguous titles such as ‘The Jews are on our side’.”

                  That’s nice. So the Jews supported a government that was not overtly anti-Semitic against one who was. What a shock.

                  Jeff wrote: “Why would anyone take that seriously?”

                  “Ask this question to Hitler.”

                  Actually I’d ask Hitler if it was really worth it all in the end with Berlin in flames, Germany divided and the Red Army raping German women.

                  Jeff wrote: “The British and French pressured the Poles up until August 31st to negotiate, even pressuring them into cancelling their mobilization.”

                  “They didn’t try hard enough. Visibly.”

                  “C’mon. Nothing would have been easier for France and England than making it clear to Poland that their common deal was broken if Poland didn’t cease provocations towards Germany.”

                  So, the Poles should have knuckled under and hoped for the best? That’s provocation?

                  Why didn’t Hitler back up a step and say, things are too heated. Let’s set a time and a place to negotiate (which Mussolini was practically begging him to do). Why keep troops that close to the border? That’s provocation. So, the Poles should have ignored the large German military presence on their border? Isn’t that ridiculous?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 18, 2016 @ 11:43 pm

                • Jeff. We may not agree on everything,but I tip my hat to you here. You’ve used one word that can sum up both sides of this war. “Hypocrisy”. You’re a gentleman and a scholar . Hipocrisy is the biggest problem,with “any” war.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 10:31 am

                • I’m not a denier. I question shit that seems a bit incredible. I know “firsthand” that we bomb senseless shit. Don’t forget,I was a witness to it. Like we would always say,”Vietnam. The land that God forgot.” Were talking about injustice on this site. I know all to well about that. I’ve said before,”I’ve never seen any dinks flat out murdered.” The most I witnessed was verbal and physical abuse. That was just as wrong. We’d patrol areas that were supposed to be secured. Vills that were totally destroyed. Either by air or on the ground. We’d hit vills that were “rumored”,to have a weapons cache. It don’t turn out that way,f–k em. Burn their shit to ground anyway. Ever seen the look on a small child’s face as they watch their hamlet burn to the ground? Believe me son. You don’t ever want to know what that’s like. Most of my people at the Nam Vets Center are haunted by ghosts. The dead haunt me. In addition to that,those children haunt me. I think about that and I feel lower than dirt. Do you think any of the allied bombers wept over the innocent at Dresden? Guess what slick? Neither you nor me will know. We weren’t there. Me and you have that common ground. As for killing innocent civilians . Bombing worthless targets,you’re a babe in the woods on that. You can talk about this like you’re an expert. Like murdering civies is a day at the beach. Well it ain’t . Believe me boy,that’s one thing you don’t ever wanna deal with! Pop told me ,”you kill a man,that’s you’re burden till you die. Yes. If that other man is trying to kill you,silence his gun before he silences yours,but you still took that mans life ! Pop called me a “stupid jackass” for harping about wanting infantry. I was begging to go to Nam. Pop is career military. He saw 3 wars. I should’ve listened to him. I’m a dumb mutha f–ker,I didn’t . Hell I did jungle training at Fort Polk. I loved it! We’d talk about all the dinks we were gonna kill. Fact is,when we were in country,it was a whole lot different . People like you can speak with complete impunity. Why? You ain’t never seen war. I hope and pray you never do. Krauts bomb civilian targets,so we bomb civilian targets. Remember the well worn adage,two wrongs don’t make a right. F–kin A straight. How many times does a place need to be bombed. Like I said,I’ve seen the same place bombed over and over . It’s all for naught. The innocent are always the first to pay the price,in any war. I’ll wag my finger at the kraut bombers and allied bombers. We got a get out of jail free card for our senseless bombings. We wrap ourselves in the American flag. All that does is hide the injustices we’ve done. Hey. I love my country. I love our military. I take a “certain amount” of pride in the fact that I served and fought . I’m just not to proud of some of the shit we pulled,wether it be in my war,or WW2. Like I said, I’m here trying to figure this whole mess out when it comes to the Jews . I never figure anything out,because a whole other can of worms gets opened. That shit gets thrown into the mix. I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth. There is no concrete answer to any of this shit. At the end of the day,Gods the only one with the answer. I take solace in the fact,at least one person knows the “truth”. Like the saying goes,”if we don’t end war,war will end us”.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 10:26 am

                • I made a blanket saying “deniers.”
                  My apologies.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 10:49 am

                • I am definitely a denier because I deny nonsense
                  And stupidity and things that don’t jibe with science things that are not logical things that don’t make sense with facts yes I am in denial because I’m For Truth not lies.

                  Jim Rizoli

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 10:56 am

                • Truth blurred by your hatred of Jews.
                  How can you see truth when all you feel is hate?

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 11:29 am

                • Jeff is hate a bad thing? The Bible says hate what is bad love what is good. The Jews are spreading lies they’re breaking one of the Ten Commandments which is the ninth commandment by lying about what happened to them so as a Christian I’m obligated to hate those that lie cheat and promote things that aren’t true. So for you to ask me not to hate would ask me not to be a Christian which ain’t gonna happen. If you had an ounce of Christianity into you you would not support any organization that lies cheats or steals the way in the people’s lives and that’s what the Jews have done for centuries. As I mentioned in other post God will deal with the Jews and all people that behave this way. For you to make it like it’s a personal thing for me against the Jews is wrong because I stand up for a truth is and I don’t back up liars no matter what religion they belong to.
                  The Jews are just really good at what they do and they’re going to have to answer for it not answer to me but answer to God he’s the final judge.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:35 am

                • The Jews don’t believe in Heaven and Hell. You would know this if you have ever watched the TV show named “The Big Bang Theory.”

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 11:39 am

                • Most Jews are humanist or atheist they do not believe in God or the Bible yet they consider themselves Jews which is the term that originated in the Bible even though it is used in a bad way.
                  To be called a Jew is actually insult, a derogatory term at best. A better term to describe the real “Jew” is Israelite not Jew. Abraham’s descendants through Jacob were considered Israelites. But then again these Israelites eventually turned bad and this is what we have in the world today apostate Israelites.
                  Or as they like to be called Jews.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 19, 2016 @ 11:47 am

                • There’s nothing worth watching on TV . Probably why nobody watches the big spank theory. Hazel,Ozzie and Harriet,Big Valley,Gunsmoke. Even Dark Shadows ( I say that’s where that lady got the idea for the “Twilight” books from). As much as I loathe Lawrence Welk,I’d rather watch him than any of this shit on tv know. Sitcoms just suck anymore. There was a show on CBS years back. “Sunrise Semester”. It was a show for intellectuals,but I found it interesting. Out of all the shows that suck the most,reality shows take the prize. I don’t give a damn about somebody else’s problems. I got my own problems. You can really tell when people are hard up for entertainment. They make a show about backwoods hicks that sell duck calls. The human race is doomed to epic failure.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 1:19 pm

                • I’ve said it before, Tim.
                  I’m sure God is looking down right now, thinking “You know, dinosaurs weren’t really that bad.”

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 1:45 pm

                • I’d settle on giving the planet back to the cro magnon. At least they were just concerned about survival

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 2:50 pm

                • That’s one thing I can say about the Jews Jimbo. They don’t accept Christ in the way they should. God said,”how you judge others,you’ll be judged by the same measure”. I’m not judging the Jews here,I’m stating a fact. It clearly states in the book of John (I think it’s the book of John ) what Christ says about himself. ” no one can come to the father,except through me. If you know my father,you know me”. Bottom line. The Jews don’t accept Christ . That means they don’t have a place at our fathers table. They think being “Gods chosen”,gives them the right to rewrite the rules. The ol man don’t put up with that shit. They don’t accept Christ,then the camps are gonna look like Club Med compared to where they’re going. Hell they’re only chosen,because at the time there was not a whole lot to choose from. Pagans or Jews . Not a wide selection to name who’s gonna be the chosen.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 12:34 pm

                • Thats why I like to listen to you and Jeff . Opposing views,so I can see both sides. There’s times I may agree with you. There’s times I may agree with Jeff . That’s the only way I can get an understanding of this,is by hearing both sides.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 12:18 pm

                • No that was hermie I was responding to. At least I think that was who left the comment. I was just letting him know that some people are just interested in history. Like I tell people,I’m just trying to figure this out . What pissed me off about hermie,was he was saying deniers always cry about allied bombing of Dresden . He mentioned the Krauts pulled the same stunt. My view was 2 wrongs don’t make a right. I mean he was able to say that with complete impunity. Like the kraut civies didn’t matter. Far as I’m concerned,the soldiers from the opposing teams can go at it like wildcats. Kill each other off,I don’t care. It’s when the innocent take the punishment I’m bothered. If people don’t like Jews ( or in this case,hate with a passion) I don’t care. When they murder them based on that dislike,they just changed the game up big time. What I was trying to get across to him was this . The bombing of Dresden ( and any civilian targets the Krauts have bombed) was just wrong. They leveled Dresden . Okay fine. There were targets there that contributed to the Krauts ability to make war,but a person can’t sit and tell me the whole city was one big factory. Some people may have been hiding kraut soldiers. Fine by me,but that soldier can’t hide out there the remaining days. He’s gonna have to leave his sanctuary,then his ass is mine. That bombing was overkill. It was done outta spite. I know that to be true,because I saw the same shit in Nam. Bombing Dresden like they did tells me they want an entire nation to pay for what was done to the Jews . I’ve seen where not everyone in that nation,hated the Jews . Max Schmelling ( you remember him from the Joe Lewis fight) was Hitlers “golden boy”. He got in the ring with Joe Lewis and took Joe down. The rematch did not favor Max. Joe Lewis put his ass down. When that happened,He fell outta favor with uncle Adolph . He threw his ass in the military. I’m not exactly sure of the whole story here,but Max helped a couple Jewish children evade being taken into custody. That’s proof right there that not all Krauts were assholes when it came to the Jews . There is a bit of irony to the Max Schmelling/Joe Lewis story. After the war they became close friends. Joe Lewis was pretty much broke when he died. Guess who took on the whole bill for the funeral of Joe Lewis? Max Schmelling. I rather think hitler would roll in his grave (I know. Hitler wasn’t buried) if he knew Max and Joe became close friends like that.

                  Comment by Tim — March 19, 2016 @ 12:14 pm

                • Holy shit! I f–ked up. I thought “you” made the comment about people whining about the bombing of Dresden. I was wrong. It wasn’t you. Oh well. Time to break my knife and fork and “eat some crow”. I thought you were the one making light of bombing Dresden. Far as I’m concerned both sides F–ked by bombing civies. I just get pissed when I see people that think bombing civies is of no import. Saw my share of that shit in Nam. Yeah I bitch about Dresden being bombed. That shit was overkill . Whatever type bombings of that nature,the Krauts may have done,I’ll get just as pissed about it too. Like I said,wether it be the Krauts,Brits or Americans that bombed the civilian targets,it was just wrong,so therefore I don’t see it as whining . Like I said I saw enough of that shit first hand when I was in country. Saw just how bad it’ll destroy families and communities . At any rate I thought you made the comment when I went off. It wasn’t you. I was wrong. Time for me to eat crow .

                  Comment by Tim — March 20, 2016 @ 5:09 am

                • edit: ‘It was supposed to be a ‘free city’’ instead of ‘It was supposed a ‘free city’ ‘

                  Comment by hermie — March 18, 2016 @ 11:02 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “So, it’s OK for the Luftwaffe to bomb undefended cities and towns in order to shorten the war but it’s not OK for the British and US to do the same?”

                  What I find hypocritical is the gap between the Allied claims and actions. Don’t you find it embarrassing when sanctimonious alleged good-doers claiming they’re fighting against barbarity and for the survival of civilization itself,, nothing less, deliberately burn women and children alive? The Allied wannabe-heroes patently did. That’s why they worked so hard to conceal their aerial bloodbaths in Germany to their own citizens and the rest of mankind. The Holohoax really helped them to achieve that.

                  Once again, you’re ‘omitting’ the intent. The Polish citizens killed during the Blitzkrieg in Poland were collateral damages, not targets, while the German civilians holocausted by Allied bombers during WW2 (especially from mid-1942) were prime targets.

                  Jeff wrote: “As it was in Britain. The prospect of war horrified Chamberlain but Hitler’s violation of the Munich Agreement placed him in a precarious position. Public opinion turned against Chamberlain after Hitler made the remainder of Czechoslovakia a “protectorate.””

                  Fable for gullible kids. When Slovakia proclaimed its own independence, Emile Hacha freely requested the establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia in order to stop any additional dismemberment of the remaining Czech lands. In 1938, when the disintegration of the artificial state of Czechoslovakia began, the bordering states had taken and shared pieces of the collapsing Czechoslovakian cake. In order to prevent a repetition of that, Hacha’s best option was to place the rest of his country Under the protection of a powerful neighbor, and that’s what he did when he requested the establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia. The Allied fairy tale of a bullied Hacha is ridiculous. Do presidents afraid to be bullied by ‘evil Nazis’ go to Berlin in person? C’mon. At best, they send an envoy there. But they don’t go to the capital of Nazi Germany themselves. Britain’s attitude toward Germany changed at that time because the White House threatened Chamberlain with reprisals if Britain continued to be too cool with Nazi Germany.

                  Jeff wrote: ” agree that the stubbornness of the Poles contributed to the tensions in the area. But, the Poles were determined not to buckle under after seeing what German “guarantees” were worth. Hitler guaranteed the Czech borders as part of the Munich Agreement and violated that agreement. There was no reason to trust what Hitler said or did after that point.”

                  A gross distortion of reality, as I’ve just explained.

                  Jeff wrote: “The US caused this? Huh?”

                  That was Chamberlain’s opinion.

                  “Played golf today with Joseph Kennedy. […] Kennedy’s view was that Hitler would have fought the Russians without any conflict with England if it had not been for Bullitt’s (Ambassador to France) urging on Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 that the Germans must be faced down about Poland; neither the French nor the British would have made Poland a case for war if it had not been for the constant needling from Washington. […] Chamberlain, he says, stated that America and the world Jews had forced England into the war. In his (J. Kennedy’s) telephone conversation with Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 the President kept telling him to put some iron up Chamberlain’s backside.” – James Forrestal, 27 December 1945 (The Forrestal Diaries, 1952, pp128-129).

                  http://codoh.com/library/document/2051/

                  http://codoh.com/library/document/2048/

                  Jeff wrote: “That’s nice. So the Jews supported a government that was not overtly anti-Semitic against one who was. What a shock.”

                  Not the Jews, the Zionists’ chief. Weizmann declared war against Germany on behalf of all the Jews in order to worsen the lot of European Jews during the coming war. Using anti-Semites as “liquidators of [Jewish] property” (in Herzl’s words) to uproot their ‘candidates’ (targets) for immigration into Palestine had always been part of the Zionists’ plans. Singling out all the Jews of Europe as Germany’s special enemies during a titanic war was all good for the achievement of the Zionists’ goals.

                  Jeff wrote: “Actually I’d ask Hitler if it was really worth it all in the end with Berlin in flames, Germany divided and the Red Army raping German women.”

                  He would probably answer that he couldn’t have prevented it from happening anyway. Two sides are needed for peace when only one side is enough for war.

                  Jeff wrote: “So, the Poles should have knuckled under and hoped for the best? That’s provocation?”

                  No. The Poles could have tried to stop their transborder nightly incursions into Germany and their persecutions and slaughter of ethnic Germans living on ‘Polish’ soil. They could also have tried to avoid 2 military mobilizations (genuine declarations of war, according to the European customs of war, in those days) within 6 months. Would have been a good start…

                  Jeff wrote: “Why didn’t Hitler back up a step and say, things are too heated. Let’s set a time and a place to negotiate (which Mussolini was practically begging him to do). Why keep troops that close to the border? That’s provocation. So, the Poles should have ignored the large German military presence on their border? Isn’t that ridiculous?”

                  That’s what he did on numerous occasions. But talking to a wall is quite hard and useless. No way to negotiate with Poland. All the German attempts had failed and there was no improvement in sight. In spite of that, between September 1 and September 3, Mussolini tried to organize a peace conference. The condition was an armistice in Poland. Poland and Germany agreed. But Britain opposed and came with a condition she knew unacceptable, i.e. the withdrawal of the German troops from Poland. The maneuver worked perfectly well and Britain successfully torpedoed Mussolini’s attempt. That’s ridiculous…and criminal.

                  Comment by hermie — March 19, 2016 @ 8:37 am

                • I wrote about the bombing of civilians in Germany on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/the-killing-of-civilians-by-the-allies-in-world-war-ii-and-the-case-of-rudolf-merkel/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 8:48 am

                • “What I find hypocritical is the gap between the Allied claims and actions. Don’t you find it embarrassing when sanctimonious alleged good-doers claiming they’re fighting against barbarity and for the survival of civilization itself,, nothing less, deliberately burn women and children alive?”

                  So, what were the Germans doing when they bombed defenseless towns and cities? Dropping cotton candy?

                  Don’t you and Jim find it embarrassing trying to blame the evil allies for their bombing campaigns when on day one the Germans did this during their invasion of Poland?

                  “The Allied wannabe-heroes patently did. That’s why they worked so hard to conceal their aerial bloodbaths in Germany to their own citizens and the rest of mankind.”

                  Are you saying that the British and US attempted to conceal what they were doing from their own citizens?
                  That’s ridiculous. There was no secrecy involved.

                  “The Holohoax really helped them to achieve that.”

                  Sorry, I zoned out when I saw Holohoax. Did you say something?

                  “Once again, you’re ‘omitting’ the intent. The Polish citizens killed during the Blitzkrieg in Poland were collateral damages, not targets, while the German civilians holocausted by Allied bombers during WW2 (especially from mid-1942) were prime targets.”

                  If you bomb an undefended target where unarmed citizens live the intent is pretty clear.
                  Sorry, the “intent” argument isn’t going to fly. The difference is degree, not intent.
                  So, what, exactly, should the allies have done from 1942 on? They wanted to keep the Soviet Union in the war but they were not ready for a second front.
                  So, the British and US should have hung out, leaving Stalin to deal with the Germans alone? This possibly leading to a Soviet surrender, leading to Germany controlling the Soviet Union and its naturally resources.
                  That’s a pretty fucking stupid way to wage war, don’t you think?

                  BTW, I’m answering you in chunks, it’s easier.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 3:39 pm

                • You wrote: “So, what were the Germans doing when they bombed defenseless towns and cities? Dropping cotton candy?”

                  I wrote about the war crimes, committed by the Germans, on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/german-soldiers-were-treated-as-war-criminals-by-the-allies-after-world-war-ii/

                  Comment by furtherglory — March 19, 2016 @ 6:19 pm

                • “Fable for gullible kids. ”

                  Reminds me of deniers.

                  “When Slovakia proclaimed its own independence, Emile Hacha freely requested the establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia in order to stop any additional dismemberment of the remaining Czech lands. In 1938, when the disintegration of the artificial state of Czechoslovakia began, the bordering states had taken and shared pieces of the collapsing Czechoslovakian cake. In order to prevent a repetition of that, Hacha’s best option was to place the rest of his country Under the protection of a powerful neighbor, and that’s what he did when he requested the establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia.”

                  Ah, the sweetness and light the Nazis spread around the world.

                  “The Allied fairy tale of a bullied Hacha is ridiculous.”

                  Do you have any actual proof besides the hearsay Hacha’s daughter?
                  As if Hitler would attempt to bully a man in front of his child…,or allow a child into a meeting that started at 1:30 in the morning.

                  “Do presidents afraid to be bullied by ‘evil Nazis’ go to Berlin in person? C’mon.”

                  Who knows what he expected? Perhaps he thought seeing Hitler in person would get him a better deal.

                  “At best, they send an envoy there.”

                  Maybe. See above.

                  “Britain’s attitude toward Germany changed at that time because the White House threatened Chamberlain with reprisals if Britain continued to be too cool with Nazi Germany.”

                  What reprisals? What proof do you have of this?

                  Jeff wrote: ” agree that the stubbornness of the Poles contributed to the tensions in the area. But, the Poles were determined not to buckle under after seeing what German “guarantees” were worth. Hitler guaranteed the Czech borders as part of the Munich Agreement and violated that agreement. There was no reason to trust what Hitler said or did after that point.”

                  “A gross distortion of reality, as I’ve just explained.”

                  Not very well.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 8:50 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “The US caused this? Huh?”

                  “That was Chamberlain’s opinion.”

                  I smell hearsay again. Do you have any actual proof?

                  “Played golf today with Joseph Kennedy. […] Kennedy’s view was that Hitler would have fought the Russians without any conflict with England if it had not been for Bullitt’s (Ambassador to France) urging on Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 that the Germans must be faced down about Poland; neither the French nor the British would have made Poland a case for war if it had not been for the constant needling from Washington. […] Chamberlain, he says, stated that America and the world Jews had forced England into the war. In his (J. Kennedy’s) telephone conversation with Roosevelt in the summer of 1939 the President kept telling him to put some iron up Chamberlain’s backside.” – James Forrestal, 27 December 1945 (The Forrestal Diaries, 1952, pp128-129).

                  http://codoh.com/library/document/2051/

                  http://codoh.com/library/document/2048/

                  Let’s take a look at some things that Chamberlain actually said publicly:

                  http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII5_Chamberlainspeech.htm

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 8:54 pm

                • More from Chamberlain:
                  http://www.emersonkent.com/speeches/peace_in_our_time.htm

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 9:00 pm

                • “Not the Jews, the Zionists’ chief. Weizmann declared war against Germany on behalf of all the Jews in order to worsen the lot of European Jews during the coming war.”

                  How does a man who has no control over any type of army declare war?

                  “Using anti-Semites as “liquidators of [Jewish] property” (in Herzl’s words) to uproot their ‘candidates’ (targets) for immigration into Palestine had always been part of the Zionists’ plans.”

                  The Nazis were already stealing Jewish property. They didn’t need anyone’s help.

                  “Singling out all the Jews of Europe as Germany’s special enemies during a titanic war was all good for the achievement of the Zionists’ goals.”

                  Back we go to Zionists.
                  Hermie, the Nazis didn’t like the Jews. The Nazis singled out Jews as enemies, they didn’t need Zionist help.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 10:07 pm

                • “That’s what he did on numerous occasions. But talking to a wall is quite hard and useless. No way to negotiate with Poland. All the German attempts had failed and there was no improvement in sight.”

                  So what? Why would the Poles negotiate over their own territory?
                  They were not obligated to negotiate anything because it was their land. If one sovereign nation approaches another sovereign nation with a proposal to build a highway or railway the nation whose land it is can say yes or no, end of story.
                  HITLER pushed this issue. The Poles had every right to refuse, just like any sovereign nation.

                  “In spite of that, between September 1 and September 3, Mussolini tried to organize a peace conference.”

                  Absolutely true. There is no arguing that.

                  “The condition was an armistice in Poland. Poland and Germany agreed.”

                  Poland agreed? Where is your proof?

                  “But Britain opposed and came with a condition she knew unacceptable, i.e. the withdrawal of the German troops from Poland. The maneuver worked perfectly well and Britain successfully torpedoed Mussolini’s attempt. That’s ridiculous…and criminal.”

                  Britain guaranteed Poland’s borders. Allowing Germany to annex the land they had taken was not acceptable under these conditions.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 10:49 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “So, what were the Germans doing when they bombed defenseless towns and cities? Dropping cotton candy?”

                  No. Neutralizing an enemy country’s defenses.

                  Are you claiming that the Blitzkrieg in Poland had genocidal aims similar to those British aerial warfare in Germany?

                  But hey, the brutish British were fighting for Christian civilization after all…

                  “We must indeed regret the necessity of attacking civilians on Christian grounds, but we must grant that it is necessary to kill as many Germans as one can, whether they are wearing a uniform or not.” – The Manchester Guardian, May 5, 1940.

                  “The orders to the bombers of the British air force should be: Wipe the Germans out! No English flyer should return saying that he could find no military targets for his bombs. The order should be: Kill them all! We should use all of our scientific knowledge to invent new and more terrible explosives. I hope that the British air force becomes so strong that it can blow these German devils (the only word one can use to describe them) to pieces. But I will go even further. I will say it openly: If I could, I would wipe Germany off the map. The Germans are an evil race. Hitler is god of the underworld, and there will be no peace until everyone who believes in him is sent to hell.” – Reverend C. W. Whipp, vicar of St. Augustine’s in Leicester, The Daily Mirror, September 5, 1940.

                  Jeff wrote: “Don’t you and Jim find it embarrassing trying to blame the evil allies for their bombing campaigns when on day one the Germans did this during their invasion of Poland?”

                  No, Mr. The-intent-doesn’t-matter. We don’t. Unlike the Allied snakes, the Germans didn’t claim they were the saviors of every cute & sweet thing in this world. High pretensions, high responsibilities…great need to lie, distort and vilify others in order to stick to your deceptive image.

                  Jeff wrote: “Are you saying that the British and US attempted to conceal what they were doing from their own citizens? That’s ridiculous. There was no secrecy involved.”

                  I was saying that the Allies rather kept their sheeple busy with other ‘news’.

                  Jeff wrote: “If you bomb an undefended target where unarmed citizens live the intent is pretty clear. Sorry, the “intent” argument isn’t going to fly. The difference is degree, not intent.”

                  Weren’t your undefended Polish cities in reality as undefended and unmilitary as the Polish army was ‘horsed’? In other words, were those cities as militarily insignificant as claimed?

                  If I kill a woman, the intent is pretty clear…unless I killed her with my car because I hadn’t seen her cross the road. She’s dead, but I didn’t intend to kill her. The importance of the intent of events and actions will perhaps become clear when you grow up…or not.

                  The British authorities had reminded their citizens of the Brutish British way to wage wars (even if it was by assigning their own designs to The Enemy): every civilian was ‘in the front line’ involved ‘by unrestricted and indiscriminate bombing of the civil population.’

                  Jeff wrote: “So, what, exactly, should the allies have done from 1942 on? They wanted to keep the Soviet Union in the war but they were not ready for a second front. So, the British and US should have hung out, leaving Stalin to deal with the Germans alone? This possibly leading to a Soviet surrender, leading to Germany controlling the Soviet Union and its naturally resources. That’s a pretty fucking stupid way to wage war, don’t you think?”

                  I won’t give any advice about the war to the Allies. They won the war. As most of time, the most brutal side prevailed. And as the only real war crime visibly is defeat, the Allies are blameless.

                  Comment by hermie — March 19, 2016 @ 8:44 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “So, what were the Germans doing when they bombed defenseless towns and cities? Dropping cotton candy?”

                  “No. Neutralizing an enemy country’s defenses.”

                  So, what’s the difference? If I bomb a city to destroy its ability to manufacture weapons, doesn’t that accomplish the same thing? Also, this campaign assisted my ally by tying up a substantial portion of German fighters for defensive purposes.

                  “Are you claiming that the Blitzkrieg in Poland had genocidal aims similar to those British aerial warfare in Germany?”

                  No, the Germans preferred to do that on a more personal level (Operation Tannenberg).

                  “But hey, the brutish British were fighting for Christian civilization after all…”

                  Yawn.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 10:19 am

                • “Weren’t your undefended Polish cities in reality as undefended and unmilitary as the Polish army was ‘horsed’? In other words, were those cities as militarily insignificant as claimed?”

                  Were the German cities bombed militarily insignificant? Communication centers, railway junctions, mobilization points for troops, manufacturing centers, etc.

                  “If I kill a woman, the intent is pretty clear…unless I killed her with my car because I hadn’t seen her cross the road. She’s dead, but I didn’t intend to kill her. The importance of the intent of events and actions will perhaps become clear when you grow up…or not.”

                  There is a big difference between accidentally hitting someone with a car versus lobbing grenades at them.
                  Talk about juvenile…….

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 10:25 am

                • Everyone and their dog comes down on hitler for invading Poland . How come no one ever brings up Stalin that much. His hands were just as dirty.

                  Comment by Tim — March 20, 2016 @ 11:36 am

                • The communist Jews have killed more people than anyone yet they get a pass when it comes to evil deeds.
                  Lets even say 6 million Jews died by the Germans (fat chance) thats nothing compared to over 100 million the commie Jews slaughtered.
                  Something wrong with this picture…..thats why the HoloHoax is continually thrown in our faces to cover up the sins of the Jews and their supporters the USA and other allies.

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 20, 2016 @ 11:48 am

                • “The communist Jews have killed more people than anyone yet they get a pass when it comes to evil deeds.

                  Really?
                  Well, the last time I checked Stalin was not a Jew.
                  Neither was Mao Tse Tung, Kim Il Sung , Pol Pot or Ho Chi Minh.
                  Those were the major Communists leaders responsible for all those deaths, Jim. None of them were Jews.

                  “Lets even say 6 million Jews died by the Germans (fat chance) thats nothing compared to over 100 million the commie Jews slaughtered.”

                  Nice to see you come around.

                  “Something wrong with this picture…..thats why the HoloHoax is continually thrown in our faces to cover up the sins of the Jews and their supporters the USA and other allies.”

                  Well, the last time I checked the Cold War ended the alliance between the Soviet Union, US and Britain.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 4:20 pm

                • Tim wrote: “Jeff. We may not agree on everything, but I tip my hat to you here. You’ve used one word that can sum up both sides of this war. “Hypocrisy”. You’re a gentleman and a scholar .”

                  Sorry for stripping Jeff of his – fully deserved, I’m sure (ahem) – title of gentleman and scholar , but I am the one who brought the hypocrisy thing on here and Jeff just spent his time dancing around the thing, pretending not to see the utter hypocrisy of the sanctimonious Allies and their highest moral claims.

                  Tim wrote: “What pissed me off about hermie,was he was saying deniers always cry about allied bombing of Dresden .”

                  The credit for this one goes to Jeff, not to me.

                  Comment by hermie — March 19, 2016 @ 9:02 pm

                • “Sorry for stripping Jeff of his – fully deserved, I’m sure (ahem) – title of gentleman and scholar,”

                  I AM a gentleman, Hermie.
                  As for scholar, I won’t claim that title.
                  But, at least I don’t claim that Hitler was a poor, innocent rube tricked into war by conniving Jews, Brits and French.

                  “but I am the one who brought the hypocrisy thing on here and Jeff just spent his time dancing around the thing, pretending not to see the utter hypocrisy of the sanctimonious Allies and their highest moral claims.”

                  Well, I actually pointed out that you and Jim were hypocrites for castigating the allies for bombing civilians when the Germans also did this.
                  The difference is in degree.

                  Tim wrote: “What pissed me off about hermie,was he was saying deniers always cry about allied bombing of Dresden .”

                  “The credit for this one goes to Jeff, not to me.”

                  I admit to being somewhat facetious.
                  However, crying for poor Dresden is getting a little old.
                  It was a manufacturing center and a railway center, making it a legitimate target.
                  Now, what the allies did was overkill. But the German military showed a remarkable ability to recover after defeats. The air campaign continued to force Germany to surrender (sound familiar, Hermie?). So there was justification to bomb Dressen and other targets.
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 19, 2016 @ 10:01 pm

                • Jeff wrote: “Do you have any actual proof besides the hearsay Hacha’s daughter?”

                  Off the top of my head, none.

                  And on your side, do you have actual proof Hacha was bullied in Berlin?

                  Jeff wrote: “What reprisals?”

                  Economic reprisals. In their nationally syndicated column of 14 April 1939, the usually very well informed Washington journalists Drew Pearson and Robert S. Allen reported that on 16 March 1939 Roosevelt had ‘sent a virtual ultimatum to Chamberlain’ demanding that henceforth the British government strongly oppose Germany and ‘the president warned that Britain could expect no more support, moral or material through the sale of airplanes, if the Munich policy continued.’ Chamberlain gave in and the next day, 17 March, ended Britain’s policy of cooperation with Germany in a speech at Birmingham bitterly denouncing Hitler (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk09.asp).

                  Consistent with Britain’s sudden about-face concerning her policy towards Germany. When Hiter met Hacha (14 March), Chamberlain told Henderson to let the German government know that the British government would not interfere in matters other governments were directly involved in (Documents on British Foreign Policy, London, 1949, Vol. IV, No.247). Henderson immediately visited the German foreign office to tell them about the English governments disinterest in the matter of the negotiations between Hitler and Hacha (Documents on British Foreign Policy, London, 1949, Vol. IV, No.232). Of course, Chamberlain ‘omitted’ to mention this episode, as well as pressure from the White House, in his Birmingham speech of March 17, 1939.

                  Jeff wrote: “I smell hearsay again. Do you have any actual proof?”

                  Not enough evidence in the 2 links I’ve posted in my comment (the links to articles on codoh [Yeah, Codoh blah blah blah, I know])?

                  Jeff wrote: “Let’s take a look at some things that Chamberlain actually said publicly: http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII5_Chamberlainspeech.htm

                  Public words (speeches) are too obviously propaganda (what doesn’t mean such words are lies, but more suspect and possibly biased). Have you already seen me often (if at all) post words from Hitler’s speeches?

                  Jeff wrote: “Back we go to Zionists. Hermie, the Nazis didn’t like the Jews. The Nazis singled out Jews as enemies, they didn’t need Zionist help.”

                  But the Zionists needed Nazi ‘help’ and anti-Jewish persecutions as numerous, geographically widespread and harsh as possible to reach their goals. And you must concede that FDR arrested, deported and imprisoned the Japs of the America in concentration camps (ditto in Canada) for far less than that. Weizmann’s real designs and aims are so transparent. That’s probably the reason why the Israeli judges flatly denied Weizmann’s declaration of war against Germany during the Eichmann show ‘trial’ at Jerusalem.

                  Comment by hermie — March 20, 2016 @ 8:19 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Do you have any actual proof besides the hearsay Hacha’s daughter?”

                  “Off the top of my head, none.”

                  “And on your side, do you have actual proof Hacha was bullied in Berlin?”

                  Well, I have the statements of witnesses.
                  But, you hate witness statements. I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that.

                  Jeff wrote: “What reprisals?”

                  “Economic reprisals. In their nationally syndicated column of 14 April 1939, the usually very well informed Washington journalists Drew Pearson and Robert S. Allen reported that on 16 March 1939 Roosevelt had ‘sent a virtual ultimatum to Chamberlain’ demanding that henceforth the British government strongly oppose Germany and ‘the president warned that Britain could expect no more support, moral or material through the sale of airplanes, if the Munich policy continued.”

                  Here is a copy of that issue:
                  http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MT19390414.2.32

                  Point out to me where it says that.

                  “Consistent with Britain’s sudden about-face concerning her policy towards Germany. When Hiter met Hacha (14 March), Chamberlain told Henderson to let the German government know that the British government would not interfere in matters other governments were directly involved in (Documents on British Foreign Policy, London, 1949, Vol. IV, No.247). Henderson immediately visited the German foreign office to tell them about the English governments disinterest in the matter of the negotiations between Hitler and Hacha (Documents on British Foreign Policy, London, 1949, Vol. IV, No.232). Of course, Chamberlain ‘omitted’ to mention this episode, as well as pressure from the White House, in his Birmingham speech of March 17, 1939.”

                  Chamberlain changed his mind after the uproar caused by German actions. He knew he was in trouble politically.

                  Jeff wrote: “I smell hearsay again. Do you have any actual proof?”

                  “Not enough evidence in the 2 links I’ve posted in my comment (the links to articles on codoh [Yeah, Codoh blah blah blah, I know])?”

                  Why should I trust CODOH? You don’t trust my sources.

                  Jeff wrote: “Let’s take a look at some things that Chamberlain actually said publicly: http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII5_Chamberlainspeech.htm”

                  “Public words (speeches) are too obviously propaganda (what doesn’t mean such words are lies, but more suspect and possibly biased).”

                  Of course they are.

                  “Have you already seen me often (if at all) post words from Hitler’s speeches?”

                  Not really, but you do like to quote Goebbel.

                  Jeff wrote: “Back we go to Zionists. Hermie, the Nazis didn’t like the Jews. The Nazis singled out Jews as enemies, they didn’t need Zionist help.”

                  “But the Zionists needed Nazi ‘help’ and anti-Jewish persecutions as numerous, geographically widespread and harsh as possible to reach their goals.”

                  The Nazis obliged them, but how many German/Austrian Jews actually reached Palestine before the war?

                  “And you must concede that FDR arrested, deported and imprisoned the Japs of the America in concentration camps (ditto in Canada) for far less than that.”

                  Of course I concede that point. It was a hideous violation of their constitutional rights, frankly a stain on the history of this country. Not as big of a stain as the expulsion of the Native Americans but up there.

                  “Weizmann’s real designs and aims are so transparent. That’s probably the reason why the Israeli judges flatly denied Weizmann’s declaration of war against Germany during the Eichmann show ‘trial’ at Jerusalem.”

                  I saw the Weizmann quote but it is from September 8th, 1939. He said something earlier?

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 9:55 am

                • Why is it that Israel was recognized as a country in ’48. I’m guessing that’s when it was recognized. They say it’s the date it was founded. Why couldn’t it have happened back in the 20’s or the 30’s? Did the situation with them in WW2 have any effect on this? Did everybody (almost everybody) back this idea because no one wanted the Jews when hitler was trying to dump them. It just seems the timing is a little suspicious.

                  Comment by Tim — March 20, 2016 @ 11:33 am

                • 1948 was pay back time….the Balfour Agreement….took a while but it happened.
                  Read about it….

                  JR

                  Comment by jrizoli — March 20, 2016 @ 11:36 am

                • Jeff wrote: “I AM a gentleman, Hermie.”

                  If you say so…

                  Jeff wrote: ” As for scholar, I won’t claim that title. But, at least I don’t claim that Hitler was a poor, innocent rube tricked into war by conniving Jews, Brits and French.”

                  Don’t forget Perfidious Albion’s transatlantic trisomic progeny, i.e. the Unites States of Amerikike.

                  Jeff wrote: “The difference is in degree. […] there was justification to bomb Dressen and other targets.”

                  Keep repeating this when you see a shooting star in the summer sky. Perhaps, it will someday become true. Who knows? Worth giving it a try…😉

                  Comment by hermie — March 20, 2016 @ 8:31 am

                • Jeff wrote: “I AM a gentleman, Hermie.”

                  “If you say so…”

                  What, you don’t believe I’m a gentleman?
                  😅

                  Jeff wrote: ” As for scholar, I won’t claim that title. But, at least I don’t claim that Hitler was a poor, innocent rube tricked into war by conniving Jews, Brits and French.”

                  “Don’t forget Perfidious Albion’s transatlantic trisomic progeny, i.e. the Unites States of Amerikike.”

                  Wow, such skill with vocabulary. I’ve never even heard of the word “trisomic.”
                  That’s an amusing word, “Amerikike.”

                  Jeff wrote: “The difference is in degree. […] there was justification to bomb Dressen and other targets.”

                  “Keep repeating this when you see a shooting star in the summer sky. Perhaps, it will someday become true. Who knows? Worth giving it a try… ;-)”

                  Well, are you saying that Dresden didn’t manufacture war material? Or have a railway?
                  Besides, by your definition it’s OK to bomb cities if the intent is to make the country capitulate quicker. After all, just a couple of months earlier the Germans counterattacked out of the Ardennes, the “Battle of the Bulge.” The US, British and Soviets didn’t know that this was Germany’s last major counteroffensive, the Germans were still fighting fanatically on all fronts. Hitler showed no signs of surrendering. Why wouldn’t the bombing campaign continue?
                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 10:09 am

                • Jeff wrote: “Well, I have the statements of witnesses. But, you hate witness statements.”

                  Witness statements? Nobody, except Hitler and Hacha, witnessed the meeting between Hitler and Hacha.

                  It’s not that I hate witness statements. It’s that I don’t trust such ‘evidence’.

                  Jeff wrote: “Here is a copy of that issue: http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MT19390414.2.32 Point out to me where it says that.”

                  I can’t. That’s just Denier BS, you know.

                  I’m joking. Just teasing you. I’m pretty playful too.

                  That was on April 15, 1939, not April 14.

                  Here it is:

                  https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19390415&id=ReFXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OvUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3579,3623242&hl=fr

                  Jeff wrote: “Why should I trust CODOH? You don’t trust my sources.”

                  You don’t need to trust codoh if you don’t want to. But you can at least read both texts and assess the reliability of that information. Shoot the message if you feel it is justified, not the messager(s).

                  Jeff wrote: “The Nazis obliged them, but how many German/Austrian Jews actually reached Palestine before the war?”

                  Many of them. The Jewish population of Palestine doubled from 1933 to 1939. In other words, as many Jews migrated to Palestine in 6 years (from 1933 to 1939) – not all of them from Germany and Austria; also a number from Poland and other lands – as during the previous 15 years (from 1918 to 1933).

                  Jeff wrote: “Of course I concede that point. It was a hideous violation of their constitutional rights, frankly a stain on the history of this country.”

                  I didn’t say that it was unfair or hideous. I didn’t blame FDR for that. Potential dual loyalty is a real threat to national security in times of war. My point was/is that Weizmann had obviously put all the Jews of Europe and beyond – Zionists, non-Zionists and even anti-Zionists, all together – in a very difficult position and that it was Weizmann’s very precise intention and goal.

                  Jeff wrote: “I saw the Weizmann quote but it is from September 8th, 1939. He said something earlier?”

                  Weizmann’s letter was published in early September 1939, but it had reached Chamberlain in late August 1939.

                  Comment by hermie — March 20, 2016 @ 7:13 pm

                • No one else besides Hacha and Hitler were present?

                  http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judseize.asp:

                  On the 14th March, 1939, the Czech President Hacha and his Foreign Minister Chvalkovsky came to Berlin at the suggestion of Hitler and attended a meeting at which the defendants Ribbentrop, Goering and Keitel were present, with others. The proposal was made to Hacha that if he would sign an agreement consenting to the incorporation of the Czech people in the German Reich at once, Bohemia and Moravia would be saved from destruction. He was informed that German troops had already received orders to march” and that any resistance would be broken with physical force. The defendant Goering added the threat that he would destroy Prague completely from the air. Faced by this dreadful alternative, Hacha and his Foreign Minister put their signatures to the necessary agreement at 4.30 in the morning, and Hitler and Ribbentrop signed on behalf of Germany.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 7:57 pm

                • “That was on April 15, 1939, not April 14.”
                  Here it is:

                  Ok, my mistake. For some reason I thought the 14th.

                  That’s interesting and definitely food for thought.
                  I see more digging on my part.
                  See, I do read the things you send me….but it’s helpful if you provide the link or post it from the beginning to prevent these misunderstandings.
                  Just a suggestion going forward……

                  https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19390415&id=ReFXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OvUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3579,3623242&hl=fr

                  Jeff wrote: “Why should I trust CODOH? You don’t trust my sources.”

                  “You don’t need to trust codoh if you don’t want to. But you can at least read both texts and assess the reliability of that information. Shoot the message if you feel it is justified, not the messager(s).”

                  I do read CODOH. I just read something the Black Rabbit of Inle provided me from CODOH. I also read the links you provide.

                  Jeff wrote: “The Nazis obliged them, but how many German/Austrian Jews actually reached Palestine before the war?”

                  “Many of them. The Jewish population of Palestine doubled from 1933 to 1939. In other words, as many Jews migrated to Palestine in 6 years (from 1933 to 1939) – not all of them from Germany and Austria; also a number from Poland and other lands – as during the previous 15 years (from 1918 to 1933).”

                  What are the numbers?

                  Jeff wrote: “Of course I concede that point. It was a hideous violation of their constitutional rights, frankly a stain on the history of this country.”

                  “I didn’t say that it was unfair or hideous. I didn’t blame FDR for that.”

                  SHOCKER!!!!

                  “Potential dual loyalty is a real threat to national security in times of war.”

                  The problem is that it violated these citizen’s rights. I do blame FDR for that. It is wrong to incarcerate people based solely on their ethnicity. It is hypocritical to not blame FDR for this action yet blame Hitler for the same thing. It is a difference of degree. None of these people suffered like concentration camp prisoners or forced laborers in Germany, however, this does not make it right.

                  “My point was/is that Weizmann had obviously put all the Jews of Europe and beyond – Zionists, non-Zionists and even anti-Zionists, all together – in a very difficult position and that it was Weizmann’s very precise intention and goal.

                  That’s an exaggeration.

                  Jeff wrote: “I saw the Weizmann quote but it is from September 8th, 1939. He said something earlier?”

                  “Weizmann’s letter was published in early September 1939, but it had reached Chamberlain in late August 1939.”

                  Ok, that clears that up.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 20, 2016 @ 8:15 pm

                • You said the Hebs were headed to Palestine during the war ( or before). I know Palestine and Israel are locking horns over that strip of land over there ,but does their beef with each other have anything to also do with the Jews that were moving to Palestine before,and/or during the war? This was the first time I ever heard about this .

                  Comment by Tim — March 21, 2016 @ 8:42 am

                • Tim wrote: “Why is it that Israel was recognized as a country in ’48. I’m guessing that’s when it was recognized. They say it’s the date it was founded.”

                  The Zionists declared the establishement of their country when the British finally left Palestine (in 1948), but the U.N. had voted the partition of Palestine and so also the establishment of the state of Israel in late 1947.

                  Tim wrote: “Why couldn’t it have happened back in the 20’s or the 30’s?”

                  The Zionists’ plan had always been a two-step statehood, a colonization and a fait accompli statehood.

                  1) Jewish mass immigration into Palestine until the Jews become a majority of the population there;
                  2) Proclamation of the Jewish statehood and ownership over entire Palestine when the Jews are a majority there.

                  The approach of the British MacDonald White Paper’s deadline (March 31, 1939) – providing for the establishment of an Arab-dominated unpartitioned state of Palestine – forced the Zionists to modify their plans and to hast the coming of their statehood.

                  Tim wrote: “Did the situation with them in WW2 have any effect on this?”

                  Of course it did. The alleged 6 million holocausted Jews were always emphasized before the Anglo-American Committe of Inquiry on Palestine and the U.N. when the Zionists were pleading their case. The alleged 6 million holocausted Jews were in the 6th (a holy number for Jews) paragraph of the Israel’s proclamation of independence.

                  6th paragraph of Israel’s proclamation of independence: “The catastrophe (‘shoah’ in Hebrew) which recently befell the Jewish people – the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe – was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State” (May 1948).

                  Even if Zionism had always been based on atrocity propaganda about a Jewish martyrdom and on doom ‘prophecies’ (as candidly admitted by Zionist vet Moshe Sharett after WW2), the massive Holohoax atrocity propaganda campaign of WW2 and the following years had successfully convinced almost everybody that there was a Jewish problem (unlike what the Assimilationist anti-Zionist Jews claimed), that the Jewish problem vitally had to be solved and that Palestine was the core of such a solution.

                  Tim wrote: “Did everybody (almost everybody) back this idea because no one wanted the Jews when hitler was trying to dump them.”

                  Almost everybody backed that idea only after WW2. Before that time, the Zionists had to fight the Assimilationists (Jews thinking they were not a problem and the future of Jewry was in the countries where the Jews were living), the Territorialists (Jews thinking the Jewish problem was to be solved with a territorial solution anywhere but in Palestine), the British (from the 1930’s, not earlier; not wanting to jeopardize the survival of their empire by antagonizing the Muslim world), and the Arabs (standing together with their Muslim fellows of Palestine against the Zionist threat). Defeating all those opponents was not an easy task. Strong oppostion, strong countermeasure(s). The Holohoax crushed all those opponents. There was little the latter could do against the ‘6 million’ magic card…

                  Comment by hermie — March 20, 2016 @ 8:18 pm

                • I wrote Jeff asking him about the Jews that rolled into Palestine during this time period. It dealt with if any of that has added to the present tension between the 2 countries. Any thoughts on that? Like I told Jeff ,this is the first I ever heard about any of that.

                  Comment by Tim — March 21, 2016 @ 8:47 am

                • Jeff wrote: “No one else besides Hacha and Hitler were present?”

                  Thanks for correcting my mistake, misconception.

                  Jeff wrote: “it’s helpful if you provide the link or post it from the beginning to prevent these misunderstandings.
                  Just a suggestion going forward”

                  That’s what I do most of time. I’ll try to do it even more often in the future.

                  Jeff wrote: “I do read CODOH. I just read something the Black Rabbit of Inle provided me from CODOH. I also read the links you provide.”

                  Good news.

                  Jeff wrote: “What are the numbers?”

                  As the number of Jews in Palestine was between 550,000 and 600,000 in late 1939, I’d say between 250,000 and 300,000.

                  Jeff wrote: “The problem is that it violated these citizen’s rights. I do blame FDR for that. It is wrong to incarcerate people based solely on their ethnicity.”

                  Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures. The idea of Japanese Americans attacking American war industries and workers when the war between the United States and Japan began, was not so crazy and irrealistic.

                  Jeff wrote: “It is hypocritical to not blame FDR for this action yet blame Hitler for the same thing. It is a difference of degree. None of these people suffered like concentration camp prisoners or forced laborers in Germany, however, this does not make it right.”

                  It’s certain that it’s more comfortable to be a prisoner of war in country where bombs are not falling, where supplies are left untouched, where food is superabundant, where forced laborers are not needed, and where typhus is just a paragraph in medical books.

                  Jeff wrote: “That’s an exaggeration.”

                  Can you imagine the lot of the Japanese Americans of that time if the Emperor of Japan had publicly urged them to support the Japanese war effort, by attacking America by various means for instance?

                  Comment by hermie — March 21, 2016 @ 9:30 am

                • Tim wrote: “I wrote Jeff asking him about the Jews that rolled into Palestine during this time period. It dealt with if any of that has added to the present tension between the 2 countries. Any thoughts on that? ”

                  I don’t think that the vast number of Jews who rolled into Palestine during the 1930’s and WW2 worsened a lot the present tension between the Jews and the Arabs. Large-scale Arab riots, opposing Jewish mass immigration into Palestine, had already occured in the 1920’s, when Jewish immigration there was much smaller.

                  Comment by hermie — March 21, 2016 @ 9:38 am

                • edit: “The approach of the British MacDonald White Paper’s deadline (March 31, 1939)”

                  1949, not 1939.

                  Comment by hermie — March 21, 2016 @ 9:40 am

                • A good summary about the real INTENT of the Allied bombing campaign during WW2 by ‘Bomber’ Harris himself:

                  “The destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilized community life throughout Germany [is the goal]. … It should be emphasized that the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives; the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale; and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.” — “Air Marshal Arthur Harris, Commander in Chief, Bomber Commander, British Royal Air Force, October 25, 1943

                  Comment by hermie — March 30, 2016 @ 8:17 am

      • Jeff K.
        Do you realize what you have actually done by admitting that you really understand what reversing the onus means? It shows that you knew quite well that you were trying to reverse the onus. Why would you consciously try to reverse the onus if you really had the evidence I asked for? It clearly shows that you really don’t have proof and are trying to change the focus to other areas. That way you not only get out of your dead end but have a chance for more obfuscation and to make a big deal out of some minor or irrelevant point all the while proclaiming that there is evidence for homicidal gassings. In the end where the Jews went or if there were as many there as claimed is secondary to forensic or documentary evidence for the alleged gassings. Producing detailed evidence of an extermination plan and the weapon of mass destruction would solve the problem and neutralize the sceptics. Then those promoting this hate propaganda wouldn’t have to spend all that money and effort squelching inconvenient information from reaching the public, while spending more money buttressing the myth with dogma dramas and planting spurious assertions and articles in the media.

        Now that you have shown that you don’t have the evidence I asked for I will briefly go into the secondary area of demographics, which can not in and of itself prove that there were gas chambers or if anyone was gassed. It can only indicate if there were or were not enough Jews under German control, to do so.

        ‘The American Jewish Year Book’ – 5707 (1946-47) Volume 48 Page # 606 – Shows that the maximum number of Jews under German control was approximately 4,000,000. Page # 322- Explains that many Polish Jews fled eastward from the advancing Germans to the Soviets who evacuated them along with those already under their control to various parts of the Soviet Union.

        The 1946-47 Year book does not deal with the number of Jews that one way or other got out of war time Europe to Turkey the Middle East and North Africa, China, India and other Asian countries, Argentina, USA and other countries of the Americas and Caribbean, England, Sweden etc.

        According to a 1983 bulletin published by the German Information Centre 410 Park Ave. New York, N.Y. Up to Dec. 31, 1982 Germany government has paid compensation to 4,379,496 individuals.

        For a thorough exploration of the demographics see ‘The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry’ by Walter N. Sanning

        This information indicates that the Gassing story is pure fiction, but as I said before If there was documentary or forensic evidence for homicidal gassings these demographic figures would lose any relevance. Then the question of numbers would shift to how many were gassed. That’s why proof of homicidal gassing is crucial. Until that is addressed thoughtful individuals will remain at the very least sceptical.

        Comment by John Mortl — March 16, 2016 @ 8:19 am

        • “Do you realize what you have actually done by admitting that you really understand what reversing the onus means?”

          Was I not clear?
          Maybe I should go about this a different way.
          Holocaust deniers have an idea or theory about where Europe’s Jews went during World War II. This runs contrary to accepted history.
          If your idea or theory is contrary to accepted theory it is incumbent on you to
          PROVE
          IT.

          “It shows that you knew quite well that you were trying to reverse the onus. Why would you consciously try to reverse the onus if you really had the evidence I asked for? It clearly shows that you really don’t have proof and are trying to change the focus to other areas.”

          No, I am simply tired of trying to defend the evidence I’ve provided.
          I recently provided a report compiled by the Poles in 1945. Now, I hear a lot of “there’s no forensic evidence of the Holocaust.” This report states that the Poles found Prussic Acid on items recovered from the gas chamber and hair recovered from the gas chamber.
          Instead of “Wow, someone did in fact test and find evidence of Prussic Acid” the immediate jump was, “Oh, this is fake. This is unreliable because the Soviets provided the items.”
          Now, it’s awfully easy to claim something is fake or forged.
          What I’ve done is simply get away from endless debate over gas chambers.
          I’ve given deniers another avenue to prove their point. You see, if the implication is that the Jews continued on to the East there should be evidence for this.
          I’ve said, “Go find it.”
          That’s not hard, is it?
          Holocaust denial started very soon after the war ended (go to Inconvenient Histories). I would think, because this is the way that this is normally done, that once deniers “debunked the gas chambers” (everyone is entitled to their own illusions) that they would turn to where the Jews went.
          I imagine that there has to be a paper trail. After all, it required trains to get there, which means schedules. Plus, the SS needed to coordinate all of this with the military, which required all manner of correspondence. I imagine that there were protests from various generals because they needed men and material, not a bunch of civilians moved into their operational zone.
          This required commanders for the camps, plus guards. If they weren’t camps they were ghettos and needed their own Judenrat, plus materials to seal these ghettos and provisions to feed them.
          So, go find it, intrepid deniers.

          “That way you not only get out of your dead end but have a chance for more obfuscation and to make a big deal out of some minor or irrelevant point all the while proclaiming that there is evidence for homicidal gassings.”

          I hardly call this irrelevant. This is a lot of people, including women, children and the elderly.

          “In the end where the Jews went or if there were as many there as claimed is secondary to forensic or documentary evidence for the alleged gassings.”

          No, it is not. You can’t blank out the numbers.

          “Producing detailed evidence of an extermination plan and the weapon of mass destruction would solve the problem and neutralize the skeptics”

          Done and done, over and over again. You don’t believe it because it does not fit your agenda.

          Let me ask you something, Mortl.
          If today someone produced an honest to God actual film of a gassing taking place, would you believe it?
          Or would you call it a fake?

          “Then those promoting this hate propaganda wouldn’t have to spend all that money and effort squelching inconvenient information from reaching the public, while spending more money buttressing the myth with dogma dramas and planting spurious assertions and articles in the media.”

          Words, words, words and more words, ad infinitum, world without end.

          More to come.
          Jeff

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 11:37 am

          • Jeff…..Actually less words are more…….You can’t prove forensically that millions of Jews were killed any which way period!
            Fumigation chambers were just that and morgues were just that. Traces of ZB does not prove criminal intent….it just proves there were “traces” of the product and people alive and dead could of been in contact with it. Traces can’t kill ya….But fumigation chambers did have astronomical off the charts amounts of ZB big difference.

            JR

            Comment by jrizoli — March 16, 2016 @ 12:48 pm

            • “Jeff…..Actually less words are more…….”

              You should really take your own advice, Jim.

              “You can’t prove forensically that millions of Jews were killed any which way period!
              Fumigation chambers were just that and morgues were just that. Traces of ZB does not prove criminal intent….it just proves there were “traces” of the product and people alive and dead could of been in contact with it. Traces can’t kill ya….But fumigation chambers did have astronomical off the charts amounts of ZB big difference.”

              It makes sense that the fumigation chambers would have large amounts of cyanide detected. They are intact buildings protected from the weather (which, of course, makes us ask why those buildings were blown up and not the more valuable industrial plant at Monowitz).

              Jim, I realize nothing I’m going to say is going to change what you think.

              You are simply blinded by your personal feelings.

              Jeff

              Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 1:29 pm

              • Jeff….quote about me You are simply blinded by your personal feelings.
                Which are? You do know I’m a realist not a theorist…

                How about you?

                JR

                Comment by jrizoli — March 16, 2016 @ 1:43 pm

                • I’m an amateur historian, Jim.

                  I harbor no ill will towards anyone, regardless of race, religion, background, sexual orientation or gender.

                  I’ve spent a great deal of my life studying history. I understand good and evil because everyone is capable of both.
                  True saints and demons are rare.

                  I don’t understand your hatred towards the Jews, primarily because again, regardless of who we are we are all capable of the most disgusting misdeeds and the most heroic acts.

                  I’m a realist when it comes to Nazi Germany, Jim. I understand what Hitler did and why he did it, just as I understand Stalin. Or Mao, for that matter.

                  I don’t place Hitler outside of history. To me he is one of those individuals like Stalin who are capable of turning the world upside down in order to get what they want.

                  So, Jim, I think I am far more realistic than you think.

                  Jeff

                  Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 2:48 pm

        • Correction.
          I said “accepted theory,” I meant “accepted history.”

          Comment by Jeff K. — March 16, 2016 @ 11:44 am


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