Scrapbookpages Blog

August 9, 2016

The Lithuanian Jews are back in the news

Filed under: Holocaust, Uncategorized — furtherglory @ 10:22 am
Building where Lithuanian Jews were held

Building, known as the Seventh Fort, where Lithuanian Jews were imprisoned during World War II

The following quote is from a news article which you can read in full at http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.736014

Begin quote

The city of Kaunas in Lithuania defended the operator of a former concentration camp [known as the Seventh Fort] where recreational events are [now] held near the graves of thousands of Jews killed by Nazis and local collaborators.

The defense came this week from Deputy Mayor Povilas Maciulis, following an article published last month by JTA about summer camps, barbecue parties, treasure hunts and camping activities taking place at the Seventh Fort. In 2009 the city privatized the site, which is run by a nongovernmental organization, the Military Heritage Center, headed by 37-year-old amateur historian Vladimir Orlov.

“Yes, there are activities carried out in the museum, however, they are exclusively educational and pertaining to the museum’s purpose,” Maciulis wrote in a statement that he sent to several people a few days after the Israel director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Efraim Zuroff, asked the mayor to intervene to have festivities banned from the Seventh Fort – a former military complex that was turned into a camp in 1941.

During a July 12 visit to the Seventh Fort, JTA documented children playing and dancing near the barbecue corner at the entrance to the camp. Asked whether one could have a wedding reception at the site, Orlov told a JTA reporter: “This is not a problem, it sometimes happens here,” and said he would send a price quote in an email, which never arrived.

Zuroff and the Lithuanian novelist Ruta Vanagaite independently confirmed the holding of recreational activities at the Seventh Fort in a Lithuanian-language book they coauthored and published earlier this year. Following the JTA expose, the news portal Lrytas published photos of a camping activity on the grounds.

On Friday the city posted on its website an interview with Orlov, in an unsigned article titled “Journalistic provocation didn’t work out: Kaunas respects and cherishes the memory of Jewish people.”

End quote

Read more about this in this news article: http://www.jta.org/2016/08/09/news-opinion/world/lihtuanian-city-defends-holding-events-at-former-nazi-concentration-camp

 

18 Comments »

  1. We are always hearing about the Seventh Fort in Kaunus, where a proportion of the Lithuanian Jews were imprisoned by the Germans after they invaded in June 1941; but no one ever tell us whether this fort was first used by the Soviets for interning Lithuanian citizens during the previous year – when the Red Army had occupied the country.

    Unlike the holocausters – who always talk about Jewish victimhood, independent researchers should really put historical events into their proper context by exploring how many Russian Jews were serving in Lithuania with the Soviet army, police and NKVD during this earlier period; and also asking how much collaboration did Lithuanian Jews carry out with their Soviet Hebrew brethren.

    Comment by Talbot — August 9, 2016 @ 12:17 pm

    • “Unlike the holocausters – who always talk about Jewish victimhood, independent researchers should really put historical events into their proper context by exploring how many Russian Jews were serving in Lithuania with the Soviet army, police and NKVD during this earlier period;”

      So, out of curiosity….and, frankly, because you show a great propensity to question things without providing any answers of your own….I decided to look into this for you.

      Unfortunately I couldn’t find anything specific regarding the ethnic composition of the Lithuanian NKVD, but, take heart, Talbot. I did find information regarding the ethnic composition of the NKVD as a whole.
      I even found a denier site that confirmed some things I already knew, mainly that after the Great Purge ethnic Russians dominated the NKVD as a whole. This occurred before the expansion of the USSR in 1939-1940……helped by Hitler.

      So, I found two sites, one by Germar Rudolf (at least, I think it’s Germar Rudolf. It could be Ernst Gauss…..) and another page from a book written by actual historians.

      http://vho.org/tr/2004/3/Rudolf325-327.html

      https://books.google.com/books?id=hyYGOyX1IQUC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=ethnic+composition+of+the+nkvd&source=bl&ots=D_1vJmW4Cv&sig=gKv_KUBar3cDeGJDCSDmiucSMlU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1_fqoz7XOAhVTySYKHUdkDTkQ6AEIIDAC#v=onepage&q=ethnic%20composition%20of%20the%20nkvd&f=false

      You’ll note that the numbers match. Rudolf’s conclusion is crap but that’s a different story altogether.
      Another important point:
      By the time of the USSR’s expansion, again, helped by Hitler, the head of the NKVD, Beria, was not a Jew. He was an ethnic Georgian. Stalin himself was not a Jew and turned out to be quite anti-Semitic himself.

      “and also asking how much collaboration did Lithuanian Jews carry out with their Soviet Hebrew brethren.”

      The answer is, not much.

      Of course, I welcome the opportunity for you to provide proof otherwise.

      Comment by Jeff K. — August 9, 2016 @ 6:15 pm

      • So you were unable to provide any information about the two specific questions that I was asking in regards to Lithuania – which rather confirms my point that historical events of WW2 are not being researched or presented in their proper context by the “actual historians” who you admire so much.

        Comment by Talbot — August 10, 2016 @ 4:56 am

        • “So you were unable to provide any information about the two specific questions that I was asking in regards to Lithuania – which rather confirms my point that historical events of WW2 are not being researched or presented in their proper context by the “actual historians” who you admire so much.”

          Well, it’s a bit obscure, Talbot. There is some literature about the NKVD and its ethnic make-up. You can see that ethnic minorities, including the Jews, declined markedly during the Great Purge.
          Now, I did find a book on Lithuania yesterday on-line. It’s four hundred pages long so I haven’t read it yet.

          Now, if you can trouble yourself to do some research on your own I will happily read through it.

          Comment by Jeff K. — August 10, 2016 @ 6:56 am

          • Why do you think that the information about the Soviet occupation of the Baltic States is so obscure, Jeff. After all – you are always singing the praises of people who you regard as “real” or “actual” historians. You have also stated that the Soviet archives have been open to western scholars ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union – so I think its fair to ask, why have these historians been so negligent in researching and writing about this aspect of WW2.

            You say that you found a 400-page book online about Lithuania. Please can you tell us the title, author and website in order for us to research the info. for ourselves.

            Comment by Talbot — August 10, 2016 @ 8:20 am

            • “Why do you think that the information about the Soviet occupation of the Baltic States is so obscure, Jeff.”

              Well, off the top of my head I say it has to do with the size of and relative importance of the countries involved. Probably most of the papers or books are in the native languages of those countries and no one has translated them and/or published/posted them. I don’t want to denigrate them….after all, the subject is very important to the people who live in those countries….but it doesn’t attract a wide (Western) audience.

              This actually disappoints me, I’m personally interested in the subject. I’ve looked for books on the resistence to Soviet rule in the Baltics and can’t find anything. There was a documentary on Netflix at one time about the resistence efforts of those countries but I didn’t like it and turned it off. It was very poorly made and only focused on one partisan.

              I did find this:

              http://www.lituanus.org/1988/88_3_01.htm

              And this:

              http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/Database/Lithuania/Lithuania-Communist-Era/1939-1941

              “After all – you are always singing the praises of people who you regard as “real” or “actual” historians.”

              That’s correct. I’d take a real historian any day of the week and twice on Sundays over a denier hack.

              “You have also stated that the Soviet archives have been open to western scholars ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union – so I think its fair to ask, why have these historians been so negligent in researching and writing about this aspect of WW2.”

              Read the above.

              You could also ask why no books on Macedonia or Albania, I’d answer it the same way. Probably lack of interest.
              I’m not saying that books on the subject don’t exist. I’m just saying I haven’t found them. The same holds true about Chelmno and Majdanek. These camps aren’t as well known, consequently there isn’t much literature about them. Oddly, I think the same holds true about the Operation Reinhard Camps or concentration camps like Stutthof.

              “You say that you found a 400-page book online about Lithuania. Please can you tell us the title, author and website in order for us to research the info. for ourselves.”

              Wow, I’m shocked.

              I’ll give you a copy:

              http://www.lka.lt/download/27775/2014%20-%20gediminas%20vitkus%20ed%20-%20wars%20of%20lithuania.pdf

              Comment by Jeff K. — August 10, 2016 @ 9:51 am

              • People still wanna think Papa Joe was a warm fuzzy kind of guy. I say he was the right hand of Satan

                Comment by Tim — August 10, 2016 @ 10:05 am

              • Unfortunately, the Lithuania book didn’t page up, Jeff, but thanks for the “communist crimes.org” link. It would appear that the “sovietisation” program of 1940/41 inside Lithuania was particularly hectic and brutal, which affected and devastated many echelons of Lithuanian society.

                Fair enough, the website itself may be a polemical one, and very biased in what it is attempting to achieve. But could it be, that when the Germans arrived in the Baltic States in June and July of 1941, the native populations – rightly or wrongly – identified the Jews as being responsible for the cruel policies of the Soviet communists, and thus poured out their hatred and revenge on the Jewish community inside Lithuania.

                Comment by Talbot — August 10, 2016 @ 10:39 am

                • “Unfortunately, the Lithuania book didn’t page up, Jeff, but thanks for the “communist crimes.org” link. It would appear that the “sovietisation” program of 1940/41 inside Lithuania was particularly hectic and brutal, which affected and devastated many echelons of Lithuanian society.”

                  Sorry about the book, I’ll give you the Google link. It’s a book on the Wars of Lithuania, I’m hoping it will shed some light on events 1940-1953.

                  “Fair enough, the website itself may be a polemical one, and very biased in what it is attempting to achieve. But could it be, that when the Germans arrived in the Baltic States in June and July of 1941, the native populations – rightly or wrongly – identified the Jews as being responsible for the cruel policies of the Soviet communists, and thus poured out their hatred and revenge on the Jewish community inside Lithuania.”

                  I agree. I think local Jews became scapegoats for Soviet oppression.

                  Comment by Jeff K. — August 10, 2016 @ 11:05 am

      • “By the time of the USSR’s expansion, again, helped by Hitler…”

        And also helped by the British and French, who, after encouraging Polish intransigence, failed to come to any agreement or treaty with the Soviet Union to prevent the Soviets from invading the eastern part of Poland. Neither did they come to Poland’s military aid, as they promised, once the country had been invaded. Both France and Britain protested meekly about Soviet expansion – but did nothing, and in fact retained full diplomatic relations with the SU and threw Poland to the wolves.

        Yes, Stalin had help alright – from one and all !

        Comment by Talbot — August 10, 2016 @ 5:24 am

        • “By the time of the USSR’s expansion, again, helped by Hitler…”

          “And also helped by the British and French, who, after encouraging Polish intransigence, failed to come to any agreement or treaty with the Soviet Union to prevent the Soviets from invading the eastern part of Poland.”

          Actually what the British and French wanted was a military agreement with the Soviets to assist in any conflict with Germany. The Poles (rightfully so) wanted nothing to do with the Soviets, concluding (rightfully so) that any assistance the Soviets offered would come with a price tag. Now, my opinion on this is that the Poles should have agreed to Soviet assistance, even at the loss of some territory. It would have spared them (and Europe) a great deal of grief.
          Stalin, being the smart man he was, realized that coming to an agreement with Germany spared him from fighting Germany and came with an added bonus of territory reclaimed from the Poles, plus a little extra. It also gave him control of the Baltics without the added trouble of waging war.
          Stalin also suspected (with some reason) that the West wanted Germany to fight its wars in Eastern Europe. This agreement spared him from war.

          “Neither did they come to Poland’s military aid, as they promised, once the country had been invaded.”

          You are correct, they didn’t. The Poles clung to the illusion that the British and French were on their way until almost the end. Now, the military agreements the West signed with Poland only specified Germany, so the West was under no obligation to declare war on the Soviets once they invaded.

          “Both France and Britain protested meekly about Soviet expansion – but did nothing, and in fact retained full diplomatic relations with the SU and threw Poland to the wolves.”

          Actually, the French wanted to pick a fight with the Soviets by bombing their oil fields and attacking their Black Sea Fleet. The British had to restrain them on several occasions, concluding (correctly) that war with the Soviets was a really bad idea considering they still had Germany to contend with.

          “Yes, Stalin had help alright – from one and all !”

          Well, the agreement with Germany allowed the Soviets to extend their influence into Eastern Europe without much of a fight. So, in other words, Hitler directly contributed to the spread of Communism where it didn’t exist.

          So much for the whole, “but, Hitler only wanted to stop the spread of Communism!” argument, eh, Talbot?

          Comment by Jeff K. — August 10, 2016 @ 7:20 am

          • It always seems like when the French want to start something,it’s always DeGaulle starting it,and the French citizens having to do the physical part. Ol Charlie kept his little chicken shit ass safely tucked away. What a lil bitch. He talked too much shit. “Talk shit,get bit”. Except for DeGaulle.

            Comment by Tim — August 10, 2016 @ 10:03 am

        • They were only “meek” in their protest to Papa Joe so they could go down in history as saying,”hey. We tried to slow Stalin down”

          Comment by Tim — August 10, 2016 @ 9:57 am

  2. I never heard of “Stuthorf “. Some prick in Germany who looks into nazi war crimes,said he’s identified 8 more nazis that are war criminals. 4 male guards and 4 females that were “secretaries”. You gotta be shittin me! This prosecutor clearly just wants another notch in his belt. Just how f–kin stupid,can the Jews get? Accessory to murder for the secretaries? I like how they always say,they’re accessories cause they knew what was going on. What were these secretaries supposed to do? Go snitch everyone out,just so they could end up with one put in their heads. I always hear then yammering on about the towns folk near the prisons,knowing what was supposedly going on. When are they gonna starting tagging those town folks? Hey it wouldn’t surprise me. Put secretaries on trial. We’re not talking about Ken Lays secretary from Enron here. What may or may not have happened in these prisons,I don’t even think they’d let the secretaries in on detailed descriptions of this so called shit. Any more the Jews are coming across as chickenshit cry babies to me. They ain’t got any balls,so pulling shit like this,clearly makes them feel like “real men”. I say someone should tell them,”man the f–k up. Go to Walmart and buy some balls,then fight your own battles”. They’re a bunch of pussy ass bitches

    Comment by Tim — August 9, 2016 @ 11:07 am

    • You wrote: “I never heard of “Stuthorf “

      The name of the camp was Stutthof. I wrote about it, and included a photo, on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/stutthof-gas-chamber/

      Comment by furtherglory — August 9, 2016 @ 11:14 am

    • Try Google (www.google.com) – you really are an idiot

      Comment by Anonymouse — August 11, 2016 @ 5:55 pm

      • There you go. You just proved my point about humans being the most arrogant animal on the planet. What did you accomplish by calling me a prick? Is it something that makes you feel powerful? Maybe you like being jeffs,”pep squad”. Maybe you don’t like the idea,that I hate prosecutors. At the end of the day,they just look for another feather for their war bonnet. I loathe prosecutors,because they don’t play by the book. There was the main wit for the prosecution at my trial. This person was coached to no end. That’s how I ended up pulling 3 years. The prosecutor mentioned in the article,is reaching. Putting a case on a Girl Friday? He’s already writing his resume,for when he seeks a higher government office. Here’s something. You clearly ain’t here that much. If you were,you’d know I choose no side. I’m here deciding what I think is factual and what I think is BS. I tell people,I thought Nam was confusing when I ended up in country. That ain’t shit compared to this topic. I think holo laws are BS. I’ll listen to someone explain their side as to why they are a necessity. One time Jeff showed me a pic a person took at one of the prisons. A person took a pic through a small crack in a door. The pic was nazi soldiers gunning down a group of people. I sided with him,that the pic was more than likely,”the real deal”. So your arrogance led you to deduce,I think the holo is BS. Wrong. For the record,don’t ever send me to “Google “. I’m not gonna listen to anything that comes from a liberal search engine

        Comment by Tim — August 11, 2016 @ 9:50 pm

  3. This is just another horror Disneyland they are going to make some good money on this. This how the Jews work if they can capitalize on something they’re all for it.

    JR

    Comment by jrizoli — August 9, 2016 @ 11:07 am


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