If you don’t know the significance of the Bug river, you know nothing.
The following quote is from Wikipedia:
Begin quote
A tributary of the Narew River, the Bug forms part of the border between Ukraine and Poland for 185 kilometres (115 mi),[2] and between Belarus and Poland for 178 kilometres (111 mi),[2][3] and is the fourth longest Polish river.
[…]
Traditionally the Bug River was also often considered the ethnographical border between the Orthodox and Catholic Polish peoples. The Bug was the dividing line between German Wehrmacht and Russian Red Army forces following the 1939 invasion of Poland in the Second World War.
End quote
The Bug river forms the border between Poland and three other countries. So what? you say. Does it seem strange to you that the Nazis put their “death camps” right on their border with these other countries?
My 1998 photo of the road into Treblinka camp
Take a look at my 1998 photos of the bridge over the Bug river.
My 1998 photo of the wooden bridge over the Bug river
My 1998 photo of the middle of the bridge
After the joint conquest of Poland by the Germans and the Russians in September 1939, the river Bug (pronounced Boog) became the border between the German-occupied General Government of Poland and the Russian zone of occupation; then Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941 and conquered the strip of eastern Poland that was being occupied by the Russians. Treblinka is located in the former General Government.
On January 20, 1942, a conference was held in Wannsee, a suburb of Berlin, where plans were made for the “Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” Three extermination camps, called the Operation Reinhard Camps were planned at this conference.
Treblinka was the last of the Operation Reinhard camps to be set up; the other two were Sobibor and Belzec. All three of the Operation Reinhard camps were located on the western side of the Bug river. There is a bend in the river near Treblinka, which required a bridge over the river in order to get to the village of Treblinka, although the village is located on the western side of the border between the former General Government and the Russian zone of occupation.
Hardly more than a creek, the Bug is shallow enough in some places so that one can wade across it, and according to historian Martin Gilbert, some refugees, from both sides, did wade across. The movie “Europa, Europa” has a scene in which Jewish refugees are shown walking toward the Russian sector, trying to escape the Nazis in September 1939 by crossing the Bug river on rafts.
I wrote about the significance of Treblinka on this page of my webite: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/introduction.html
The following quote is from my web page, cited above:
Treblinka was second only to Auschwitz in the number of Jews who were killed by the Nazis: between 700,000 and 900,000, compared to an estimated 1.1 million to 1.5 million at Auschwitz.
The Treblinka death camp was located 100 km (62 miles) northeast of Warsaw, near the railroad junction at the village of Malkinia Górna, which is 2.5 km (1.5 miles) from the train station in the tiny village of Treblinka.
Raul Hilberg stated in his three-volume book, “The Destruction of the European Jews,” that there were six Nazi extermination centers, including Treblinka. The other extermination camps were at Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau, all of which are located in what is now Poland. The last two also functioned as forced labor camps (Zwangsarbeitslager), and were still operational shortly before being liberated by the Soviet Union towards the end of the war in 1944 and early 1945.
The camps at Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno had already been liquidated by the Germans before the Soviet soldiers arrived, and there was no remaining evidence of the extermination of millions of Jews. The combined total of the deaths at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor was 1.5 million, according to Raul Hilberg.
End quote
Scrapbookpages Blog 
“Just admit you were wrong with your ridiculous CO2 suffocation/gas chambers and move on. Stop making a fool of yourself with that, Jeff.”
I didn’t say that the gas chambers were only CO2/suffocation chambers.
Sometimes I have trouble following your odd logic. It’s like you fixate on one of the things I say and drone on about it. First it was the sulphur dioxide and then the carbon dioxide.
I realize that you are having a hard time getting over the whole “CO2 is an innocuous gas” statement. I’ll refrain from reminding you said that.
Which you did. It’s still funny as hell.
Diesel exhaust not only contains CO2….which it does……it also contains sulphur dioxide. Both are lethal in the right concentration.
However, I don’t really understand why you are still droning on about it.
Jeff wrote: “Actually I was thinking about escorting Holocaust deniers on a trip to Eastern Europe and Russia to find proof of this “camp system” they say the Jews went to. I was going to offer to help as long as they paid for everything. The camps don’t exist, except in denier imagination, but I figured it was worth a free trip. In a way it would be just like hunting for big foot.”
“If you have time to devote to research, you’d better look for physical evidence of Nazi homicidal gas chambers and mass graves of a size related to the exterminationist claims,”
I don’t need to, archeological digs at the sites are in the process of finding both.
“like any accuser of this world”
There you go with the whole accuser bit again.
“willing to prove his/her claims with non-childish reliable evidence.”
Talk about childish.
Wah!!!!! I don’t have to prove anything!!!!!! Go away and leave me alone!!!!!!!!!
“Time to grow up and drop physically-unproven Santa-Claus-style beliefs…”
Time to grow up and actually prove the BS you are spewing.
“Even if there had been no camps in Far Eastern Europe for the expelled Jews unfit for work, anyway there were vastly enough ghettos capable of being crowded, overcrowded or very overcrowded to house very, very numerous additional Jews in that area.”
Except that Himmler ordered the ghettos cleared in the General Government in July of 1942. Those were the Jews sent to the Action Reinhard Camps that deniers say were sent to the Soviet Union. They weren’t stuffed into ghettos in Poland, they were sent to the ARC, where the trail stops.
“And I still fail to see why the special camps for people unfit for work mentioned by Soviet prosecutor Rudenko at Nuremberg would have been filled with local Slavs.”
Slavs or local Jews, what’s the difference? These were people the Germans didn’t want wandering around in a war zone. There is SOME evidence that Polish Jews did wind up in the USSR… but these were able-bodied Jews, not women or children. I’ll also remind you that Gauleiter Kube ordered a halt to all deportations on July 31st, 1942 on the threat of eliminating any further transports.
“Unfit for work = also unfit for sabotage and terrorist activities, so not a concern for the authorities of a country at war there. Such special camps make sense only as part of a general policy of territorial eviction such as that against the Jews of Europe.”
But a concern for the military and civil authorities that have to take care of such people….in the worst possible conditions imaginable.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 7, 2016 @ 11:06 am
Jeff wrote: “I didn’t say that the gas chambers were only CO2/suffocation chambers. Sometimes I have trouble following your odd logic. It’s like you fixate on one of the things I say and drone on about it. First it was the sulphur dioxide and then the carbon dioxide.”
Why do you think Holohoax propagandists finally dropped the Diesel gas chambers lie? Because such facilities would have been lethal?
Jeff wrote: “I realize that you are having a hard time getting over the whole “CO2 is an innocuous gas” statement. I’ll refrain from reminding you said that. Which you did. It’s still funny as hell.”
Of course CO2 is a quite inocuous gas. Your funny CO2 as a weapon of mass murder is now listed alongside your cross section blunder and other scientific nonsenses.
Jeff wrote: “I don’t need to, archeological digs at the sites are in the process of finding both.”
Good news.
Jeff wrote: “There you go with the whole accuser bit again.”
Yeah, I know. Normal burdens of proof make you go crazy.
Jeff wrote: “Talk about childish.”
Childish, that’s what testimonial ‘evidence’ is.
So many kids in deep trouble after believing the kind man who had told them there were more candies at the back of his van… 😉
Jeff wrote: “Wah!!!!! I don’t have to prove anything!!!!!! Go away and leave me alone!!!!!!!!!”
Requesting that others prove a negative is childish. Sounds like a quarrel between young kids.
Rejecting reverse burdens of proof is not childish. That is grown-up smartness.
Jeff wrote: “Except that Himmler ordered the ghettos cleared in the General Government in July of 1942. Those were the Jews sent to the Action Reinhard Camps that deniers say were sent to the Soviet Union. They weren’t stuffed into ghettos in Poland, they were sent to the ARC, where the trail stops.”
You believe there were ghettos in Poland only??? Cute…
Jeff wrote: “Slavs or local Jews, what’s the difference?”
The difference is that it would have been senseless to house, guard and feed local Slavs who were not a threat to the German war effort and safety in that area (of course, the local Slavs unfit for work were not such a threat), and that on the other hand the mass expelling of the individuals not needed for a country’s war effort (to be joined by their relatives & friends ‘fit for work’ later, when no longer needed) is precisely what might be expected as part of an overall territorial eviction policy as that openly advocated by the German authorities of that time.
Jeff wrote: “But a concern for the military and civil authorities that have to take care of such people….in the worst possible conditions imaginable.”
Too bad Hitler coudn’t care less about that…
Comment by hermie — May 7, 2016 @ 11:36 pm
Jeff wrote: “I didn’t say that the gas chambers were only CO2/suffocation chambers. Sometimes I have trouble following your odd logic. It’s like you fixate on one of the things I say and drone on about it. First it was the sulphur dioxide and then the carbon dioxide.”
“Why do you think Holohoax propagandists finally dropped the Diesel gas chambers lie? Because such facilities would have been lethal?”
No, because someone went back and took a closer look between those who actually operated or installed the engines versus those that only received their information second hand or heard heresay.
This is common historical practice that deniers distort for their own ends. In other words, actual historical revisionism, not the bullshit that deniers peddle.
Jeff wrote: “I realize that you are having a hard time getting over the whole “CO2 is an innocuous gas” statement. I’ll refrain from reminding you said that. Which you did. It’s still funny as hell.”
“Of course CO2 is a quite inocuous gas. Your funny CO2 as a weapon of mass murder is now listed alongside your cross section blunder and other scientific nonsenses.”
You really don’t pay attention, do you?
Carbon dioxide, along with sulphur dioxide, are two lethal chemicals in diesel exhaust. Stop being so dense.
Jeff wrote: “I don’t need to, archeological digs at the sites are in the process of finding both.”
“Good news.
Sure is.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 7, 2016 @ 11:46 pm
Jeff wrote: “No, because someone went back and took a closer look between those who actually operated or installed the engines versus those that only received their information second hand or heard heresay. This is common historical practice ”
So Hilberg and Arad are not real historians with proper historical pratice. Glad to see we both agree on that…
Jeff wrote: “You really don’t pay attention, do you? Carbon dioxide, along with sulphur dioxide, are two lethal chemicals in diesel exhaust. Stop being so dense.”
Yeah, Professor Kross Section. And oxygen & nitrogen are also both lethal chemicals at the right concentration. Oops. No, I had forgotten that only “the dose makes the poison.” Sorry. That’s probably why I’m currently inhaling very large amounts of oxygen and nitrogen (99% of our planet’s atmosphere (dry air) is made of nitrogen and oxygen) without dying. 😉
Jeff wrote: “Sure is.”
I can’t wait for the Holohoaxsters’ coming excuses supposedly explaining why they’ve found nothing supporting their claims. Always a very good laugh…
Comment by hermie — May 8, 2016 @ 5:53 am
Jeff wrote: “No, because someone went back and took a closer look between those who actually operated or installed the engines versus those that only received their information second hand or heard heresay. This is common historical practice ”
“So Hilberg and Arad are not real historians with proper historical pratice. Glad to see we both agree on that…”
So by that standard, Butz with his engineering degree and Faurrison with his what, French Literature degree? Don’t follow proper historical practice.
Please. Which denier actually has a master of history, a PhD? Oddly, Leuchter does have a history degree but deniers use his alleged engineering expertise!!!
Jeff wrote: “You really don’t pay attention, do you? Carbon dioxide, along with sulphur dioxide, are two lethal chemicals in diesel exhaust. Stop being so dense.”
“Yeah, Professor Kross Section. And oxygen & nitrogen are also both lethal chemicals at the right concentration. Oops. No, I had forgotten that only “the dose makes the poison.” Sorry. That’s probably why I’m currently inhaling very large amounts of oxygen and nitrogen (99% of our planet’s atmosphere (dry air) is made of nitrogen and oxygen) without dying. ;-)”
Again, dense, dense, dense.
I SAID that high concentrations of sulphur and carbon dioxide are lethal. Those chemicals ARE IN diesel exhaust. My God, you honestly don’t pay attention. It’s like talking to Diane.
Jeff wrote: “Sure is.”
“I can’t wait for the Holohoaxsters’ coming excuses supposedly explaining why they’ve found nothing supporting their claims. Always a very good laugh…”
You don’t have to wait. They’ve already found lots of things that support the historical record.
Hhhhhhmmmmmm, deniers don’t respond with evidence that the camps are transit camps. I wonder why…….
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 2:11 pm
Jeff wrote: “So by that standard, Butz with his engineering degree and Faurrison with his what, French Literature degree? Don’t follow proper historical practice. Please. Which denier actually has a master of history, a PhD?”
I was not talking about degrees. I was formulating a conclusion about the methodology and credibility of exterminationist juggernauts like Hilberg and Arad from YOUR claim that the words told by alleged operators are more probative than the words told by Holocaust superstars like Eichmann, Gerstein and Globocnik.
Jeff wrote: “Oddly, Leuchter does have a history degree but deniers use his alleged engineering expertise!!! ”
Your claim that no valuable knowledge/expertise can come from experience and that the only knowledge worth the name is taught in university lecture halls, is incredibly elitist and offensive to the people who gained knowledge/experience/expertise on their workplaces. For info, there exist knowledgeable experts on technical matters who never went to college. Leuchter is one of those engineering technicians in the field of execution devices and his expertise in that field was widely recognized in North America before his carreer was torpedoed by Supremacist Zionist organized Jewry. Quite ironic you always depreciate Leuchter’s experience/knowledge in the field of execution technologies while you promote the alleged operators of Nazi gas chambers as a reliable source of information.
Jeff wrote: “I SAID that high concentrations of sulphur and carbon dioxide are lethal. Those chemicals ARE IN diesel exhaust. My God, you honestly don’t pay attention. It’s like talking to Diane.”
You still failed to explain when those lethal concentrations would have been reached in an air tight room of the size of an alleged AR gas chamber. My God. You know nothing about chemistry, physics and toxicology. Its’ like talking to a dolphin… 😉
Jeff wrote: “You don’t have to wait. They’ve already found lots of things that support the historical record.”
Yes, I know. They’ve found the foundations of a building they arbitrarily labelled ‘gas chambers’. So far they’ve failed to prove that building was a killing facility and to demonstrate it wasn’t the delousing shower building of the revisionist narrative.
Comment by hermie — May 9, 2016 @ 4:08 am
Jeff wrote: “So by that standard, Butz with his engineering degree and Faurrison with his what, French Literature degree? Don’t follow proper historical practice. Please. Which denier actually has a master of history, a PhD?”
“I was not talking about degrees. I was formulating a conclusion about the methodology and credibility of exterminationist juggernauts like Hilberg and Arad from YOUR claim that the words told by alleged operators are more probative than the words told by Holocaust superstars like Eichmann, Gerstein and Globocnik.”
Well, I say that those who actually operated the engines DO have more weight.
Did Eichman flip the switch? No.
Did Gerstein? No.
Globocnik? That’s Gerstein stating what Globocnik told him.
This is actual historical revisionism, not the bullshit that deniers peddle.
Does that invalidate the books that Hilberg and Arad wrote? No, it’s a detail that they (maybe) got wrong.
But, deniers can settle all of this now.
Prove the Reinhard Camps were transit camps by showing where the Jews were shipped. Or say you CAN’T and admit you are all anti-Semitic frauds.
Jeff wrote: “Oddly, Leuchter does have a history degree but deniers use his alleged engineering expertise!!! ”
“Your claim that no valuable knowledge/expertise can come from experience and that the only knowledge worth the name is taught in university lecture halls, is incredibly elitist and offensive to the people who gained knowledge/experience/expertise on their workplaces.”
I have dual degrees in history and journalism. Neither one prepared me for my current career so I never say that only knowledge is gained in universities.
However, there is a vast difference between getting a degree in history and working in state government and having a history degree and claiming engineering expertise. Would you want Fred Leuchter building a skyscraper? What about a dam? Or a house you are going to live in?
How about this:
I acknowledge that Leuchter has some skills regarding electric chairs and lethal injection devices.
But why gas chambers? Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He only submitted plans for a gas chamber for Missouri THAT WAS NEVER BUILT. Also, why would his alleged expertise translate to gas chambers built in Europe when he was a child?
“For info, there exist knowledgeable experts on technical matters who never went to college.
Leuchter is one of those engineering technicians in the field of execution devices”
But not gas chambers. Never built one, never serviced one, never designed that was built.
“and his expertise in that field was widely recognized in North America before his carreer was torpedoed by Supremacist Zionist organized Jewry.”
Aaaaawwww, paranoid much?
Leuchter got involved with a high profile case. When that happens people start looking into your background. This is how people found out that Leuchter lacked the proper engineering background.
“Quite ironic you always depreciate Leuchter’s experiment/knowledge in the field of execution technologies while you promote the alleged operators of Nazi gas chambers as a reliable source of information.”
They fueled the engines and turned the engines on. They know best what type of engines they were.
Jeff wrote: “I SAID that high concentrations of sulphur and carbon dioxide are lethal. Those chemicals ARE IN diesel exhaust. My God, you honestly don’t pay attention. It’s like talking to Diane.”
“You still failed to explain when those lethal concentrations would have been reached in an air tight room of the size of an alleged AR gas chamber. My God. You know nothing about chemistry, physics and toxicology. Its’ like talking to a dolphin… ;-)”
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
Jeff wrote: “You don’t have to wait. They’ve already found lots of things that support the historical record.”
“Yes, I know. They’ve found the foundations of a building they arbitrarily labelled ‘gas chambers’. So far they’ve failed to prove that building was a killing facility and to demonstrate it wasn’t the delousing shower building of the revisionist narrative.”
Prove them wrong. Figure out where the Jews went and I’ll listen.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 9, 2016 @ 10:08 am
Jeff wrote: “Does that invalidate the books that Hilberg and Arad wrote? No, it’s a detail that they (maybe) got wrong.”
A detail? Maybe wrong? If a novelist wrote a book in which the main character was murdered with a paintball gun, his novel would directly go to the sci-fi section of any library. The books written by Hilberg, Arad and similar storytellers should be sold as collections of fictional horror tales. They don’t belong in history section. ‘Zionist mythology’ would be a label more appropriate.
Jeff wrote: “Prove the Reinhard Camps were transit camps by showing where the Jews were shipped. Or say you CAN’T and admit you are all anti-Semitic frauds.”
Funny to see you seem to sincerely believe a person’s feelings toward Jews has anything to do with the truthfulness or falseness of his/her words. I’m afraid this statement only exposes your own biases…
Jeff wrote: “I acknowledge that Leuchter has some skills regarding electric chairs and lethal injection devices. But why gas chambers? Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He only submitted plans for a gas chamber for Missouri THAT WAS NEVER BUILT.”
Still knowledge a hundred times more valuable concerning gas chambers as that of a pharmacist like Pressac and of the other champions of exterminationism. One can only note the exterminationists have been unable to bring their own expert in gas chambers. (Not an admission that Leuchter was the best in that field?) Their greatest achievement has been to use their powerful media/propaganda machine and claim ‘we say THEIR expert is a fraud, so our testimonial fables remain valid for lack of better.’ 100% pathetic…
Jeff wrote: “Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.”
Probably the reason why so many of your teeth are now broken. 😉
Comment by hermie — May 10, 2016 @ 1:55 am
Jeff wrote: “Does that invalidate the books that Hilberg and Arad wrote? No, it’s a detail that they (maybe) got wrong.”
“A detail? Maybe wrong? If a novelist wrote a book in which the main character was murdered with a paintball gun, his novel would directly go to the sci-fi section of any library. The books written by Hilberg, Arad and similar storytellers should be sold as collections of fictional horror tales. They don’t belong in history section. ‘Zionist mythology’ would be a label more appropriate.”
How amusing that you think that a single error (if that) invalidates an entire piece of work.
What do you think historical revisionism is, Hermie? Arad and Hilberg were working with the information they had AT THAT TIME. Other historians come back with new information and update with the new available information. New things come to light. Hilberg wrote his book in what,1963? Arad wrote his book in what,1987? Do you think the world stands still, that everything is set in stone? Others came after them and took a closer look at what the actual operators of the engines said. They said petrol, not diesel. So, with a new understanding the information is updated.
BTW, full disclosure on my part. I’ve never read Hilberg’s book. I went to purchase it once but it was too pricey. I own Arad’s book as an e-book. I prefer updated material so I don’t know if I’ll ever read Hilberg’s book unless I can find it in a library somewhere.
Jeff wrote: “Prove the Reinhard Camps were transit camps by showing where the Jews were shipped. Or say you CAN’T and admit you are all anti-Semitic frauds.”
“Funny to see you seem to sincerely believe a person’s feelings toward Jews has anything to do with the truthfulness or falseness of his/her words. I’m afraid this statement only exposes your own biases…”
Oh, so you love Jews? Sorry, I misunderstood.
You can understand why I got the wrong impression when you talk about Jewish scalps.
Jeff wrote: “I acknowledge that Leuchter has some skills regarding electric chairs and lethal injection devices. But why gas chambers? Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He only submitted plans for a gas chamber for Missouri THAT WAS NEVER BUILT.”
“Still knowledge a hundred times more valuable concerning gas chambers as that of a pharmacist like Pressac and of the other champions of exterminationism.”
What, no love for Faurrison’s errand boy? Did you forget that Faurrison sent Pressac to Auschwitz to prove the gas chambers were a hoax? Or is this conveniently forgotten because Pressac figured out the truth?
“One can only note the exterminationists have been unable to bring their own expert in gas chambers.”
It’s not exactly a growth industry. I’m afraid they could only use actual chemists and architects.
“(Not an admission that Leuchter was the best in that field?) Their greatest achievement has been to use their powerful media/propaganda machine and claim ‘we say THEIR expert is a fraud, so our testimonial fables remain valid for lack of better.’ 100% pathetic…”
No, the Poles went back and did actual tests that found cyanide. Chemists have written papers about it. Other historians and architects looked at the blue prints.
Jeff wrote: “Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.”
“Probably the reason why so many of your teeth are now broken.😉”
Hey, I wanted to thank you for comparing me to a dolphin. They are actually very intelligent animals…..wait, did you not know that? Holy crap, you did study biology, right?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 10, 2016 @ 7:38 pm
Jeff wrote: “Oh, so you love Jews? Sorry, I misunderstood. You can understand why I got the wrong impression when you talk about Jewish scalps.”
I didn’t say that I like Jews. I said that there is no relation between a person’s feelings toward Jews and the validity of his/her statements. Too subtle for you?
Jeff wrote: “What, no love for Faurrison’s errand boy? Did you forget that Faurrison sent Pressac to Auschwitz to prove the gas chambers were a hoax? Or is this conveniently forgotten because Pressac figured out the truth?”
Pressac’s words only. Faurisson always denied that Pressac had ever been his ‘collaborator or disciple’ despite ‘a persistent rumor.’
“En dépit d’une rumeur insistante, il me faut, une fois de plus, préciser ici que jamais J.-C. Pressac n’a été mon «collaborateur» ou mon «disciple».” – Robert Faurisson, June 2005 (http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.be/2005/06/il-y-dix-ans-la-capitulation-de-jean.html).
Jeff wrote: “It’s not exactly a growth industry. I’m afraid they could only use actual chemists and architects.”
That’s why Leuchter couldn’t set up and operate his gas chambers. Still the best expert in homicidal gas chambers in this world.
Jeff wrote: “No, the Poles went back and did actual tests that found cyanide. ”
After excluding the most stable cyanide compounds (ferro-cyanides) from their research because their first study had confirmed Leuchter’s findings. How convenient…
Jeff wrote: “Chemists have written papers about it.”
Why do you think Chemist Richard Greene went to such great lengths trying to explain why no cyanide should have impregnated the walls of homicidal gas chambers if the second Polish ‘study’ found cyanide in the walls of the Auschwitz alleged homicidal gas chambers as claimed? Greene’s paper was written and published after the second Polish ‘study.’
Jeff wrote: “Other historians and architects looked at the blue prints.”
And they saw the words ‘Leichenkeller’ (morgue) and ludicrous ineffective reverse ventilation systems.
Jeff wrote: “Hey, I wanted to thank you for comparing me to a dolphin. They are actually very intelligent animals…..wait, did you not know that? Holy crap, you did study biology, right?”
Right. Perhaps you’d better find a job in a Sea World or another. Do you feel able to jump through a hoop as a full-time job? Good salary. Fish is full of Omega-3. Very healthy… 😉
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 4:48 am
Jeff wrote: “Oh, so you love Jews? Sorry, I misunderstood. You can understand why I got the wrong impression when you talk about Jewish scalps.”
“I didn’t say that I like Jews. I said that there is no relation between a person’s feelings toward Jews and the validity of his/her statements. Too subtle for you?”
I look at all of the deniers that post here….including you….and all I see is rabid anti-Semitism. Frankly every denier website, for the most part, displays this same attitude. So, yes, based on the evidence I say your feelings towards the Jews push you towards Holocaust denial and make you incapable of seeing what’s in front of you.
Jeff wrote: “What, no love for Faurrison’s errand boy? Did you forget that Faurrison sent Pressac to Auschwitz to prove the gas chambers were a hoax? Or is this conveniently forgotten because Pressac figured out the truth?”
“Pressac’s words only. Faurisson always denied that Pressac had ever been his ‘collaborator or disciple’ despite ‘a persistent rumor.’”
So, why was Pressac there? Does Faurrison deny sending him?
“En dépit d’une rumeur insistante, il me faut, une fois de plus, préciser ici que jamais J.-C. Pressac n’a été mon «collaborateur» ou mon «disciple».” – Robert Faurisson, June 2005 (http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.be/2005/06/il-y-dix-ans-la-capitulation-de-jean.html).”
That’s nice. I don’t read or speak French so the point is lost on me.
Jeff wrote: “It’s not exactly a growth industry. I’m afraid they could only use actual chemists and architects.”
“That’s why Leuchter couldn’t set up and operate his gas chambers. Still the best expert in homicidal gas chambers in this world.”
Nope, he’s not. Sorry. If you want to tell me he’s an expert on electric chairs or lethal injection systems I’d give him the benefit of the doubt but not in this case. He gained no practical experience in the area.
Besides, what on earth do modern gas chambers built under OSHA and EPA regulations have to do with converted Nazi gas chambers built in 1943?
Jeff wrote: “No, the Poles went back and did actual tests that found cyanide. ”
“After excluding the most stable cyanide compounds (ferro-cyanides) from their research because their first study had confirmed Leuchter’s findings. How convenient…”
Of course.
Did I mention that the man that did the actual test on Leuchter’s samples said that Leuchter used incorrect methods to extract the samples?
Did I mention that this same man said that Leuchter never told him what the samples were for so he used the wrong test, crushing the samples and diluting the cyanide? Oh, and still found traces?
Jeff wrote: “Chemists have written papers about it.”
“Why do you think Chemist Richard Greene went to such great lengths trying to explain why no cyanide should have impregnated the walls of homicidal gas chambers if the second Polish ‘study’ found cyanide in the walls of the Auschwitz alleged homicidal gas chambers as claimed? Greene’s paper was written and published after the second Polish ‘study.’”
He’s a chemist. I’m not. But, then again neither is Leuchter.
Green wrote his response to refute Holocaust deniers. Is he not allowed to do that?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 8:46 am
Jeff wrote: “Did Rudenko call these people locals? Or foreigners?”
“Rudenko didn’t say if these people were locals or foreigners. But it’s obvious they were foreigners. The Germans had other things to do than set up special camps to house, feed and guard local Jews unable to impair their war effort in that area.”
Obvious?
Oh. Well, let’s go to the statement.
“On 19 March 1944 advancing Red Army units discovered, near the settlement of Osaritchi in the region of Polesskoy in the Bielorussian S.S.R., within the limits of German defense lines, three concentration camps in which there were over 33,000 children, women, and old men incapable of work.”
OK, well that’s the bit about the 33,000. We knew that part so let’s continue.
“I interrupt my quotation, and I omit one paragraph.”
“The camps were really open squares surrounded by barbed wire. The approaches to them were mined. There were no buildings whatever even of the most insignificant type in the camp grounds.”
OK, again, nothing too surprising.
“I call the Tribunal’s attention to the fact that all this happened in March, in Bielorussia, when it is really very cold there.”
OK, we’ve established that it is definitely Soviet territory, Belorussia, not Polish territory annexed by the Soviets.
“The inmates were sitting on the ground. Many of them had lost their ability to move and were lying unconscious in the mud. It was forbidden to the inmates to build fires, to gather brush or branches for bedding. The Hitlerites shot Soviet people for the slightest attempt to violate this order.”
Propaganda? Soviet exaggeration? The Germans actually did this? Who knows, but, just remember. You’ve accepted Rudenko’s statement regarding the number of people in this camp.
“For concentration camps close to the nearest line of defense, the Germans, in the first place, selected sites in such places where they did not hope to retain their position. Secondly, they concentrated large masses of Soviet people in the camps,”
Whoa, wait a second.
I thought it was obvious that these people were foreigners because the Germans wouldn’t bother incarcerating the locals.
Maybe I misunderstood it.
“Secondly, they concentrated large masses of Soviet people in the camps,”
Nope, it definitely says “Soviet people.”
Well, that’s quite a shock. I thought they HAD to be foreigners.
“placing there primarily women, children, and old men unable to work. Thirdly, they placed in these camps thousands of typhus patients who were brought from various temporarily occupied regions of the Bielorussian S.S.R., especially for this purpose. They were kept together with the starved, weak inmates who no longer could serve as labor and who were living there under the most unhygienic conditions.”
Well, that’s just sad. Those poor SOVIET people suffering like that.
You seem to have made a mistake. You didn’t read the full statement. According to you, what should we do to people who make mistakes like this?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 8:15 pm
Jeff wrote: “Huh? The Germans claimed the Baltic states after the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Germans wanted Belorussia, the Ukraine, the oil fields in the south, etc. They could only send the Jews to areas under their control…..and those areas included active military zones or areas riddled with partisans.”
“The Germans never plannned to keep the Baltic states, the Ukraine and the captured areas of Western Russia for themselves after the war. That’s why they kept repatriating the ethnic Germans living there (Heim Ins Reich program) when their troops occupied those areas. Those areas were part of the secular Russian sphere of influence. The German occupation of those lands was just a wartime measure. So the Nazis had good reasons to dump their unwanted and unneeded Jews into those non-German areas. Got it now?”
No, because it doesn’t make any sense. You are trying to tell me that the Germans were going to give those territories back after shedding blood for them? They were going to give Ukraine back, the Ukraine with it’s valuable farmland? I don’t think so.
Jeff wrote: “The Germans could only send Jews to areas they controlled, either directly through military conquest or indirectly to areas their allies controlled. We can safely rule out Germany. We both agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out.”
“Yes, we both agree on that.”
Jeff wrote: “Not in Western Europe, the Germans deported Jews East out of France, the Netherlands, etc.”
“True. True for all the countries surrounding the Reich. The Nazis regarded the Jews as anti-German agitators and war mongers. So in their opinion, there was no lasting peace possible with surrounding countries not Judenrein.”
So far we are in agreement.
Jeff wrote: “Not into Hungary, Romania, etc.”
“Obvious.”
Yup.
Jeff wrote: “Not the Baltics.”
“Why not?”
Why would they pack the Baltics full of Jews with Prussia so close?
Jeff wrote: “The Germans “deported” the Jews out of Poland. So that leaves the Soviet Union.”
“The Soviet Union and its nearest future satellites, i.e. the central and eastern part of the secular Russian ‘Pale of Settlement.’”
Are you saying they did this during the war?
Jeff wrote: “The Germans were actively engaged in a siege at Leningrad, Belorussia was an active partisan area, the Ukraine was too valuable and east of the Ukraine was a fluid war zone.”
“Irrelevant. Some guarded special camps full of Jewish children, women and elders didn’t threaten and impair the German war effort there. Minimum investment. Zero troubles.”
Some? You mean at least a million people.
Jeff wrote: “Where, then?”
“Western Russia, Belarus, Baltics, Ukraine, or a portion of that area, i.e. ‘the northeast of Europe’ like Buehler said or in other words ‘on the eastern border of the German sphere of interest’ like Seyss-Inquart said. Note that all the special camps mentioned by Rudenko at Nuremberg were located within that area.”
Except that those camps were full of locals. Scratch the whole “foreign Jew” idea.
Jeff wrote: “I see a road trip in your future, then. Let me know how it goes.”
“Indeed. If not in my future, in some revisionists’.”
Best get cracking, then. Let me know when you get back.
Jeff wrote: “Well, there you go. A research area for you to start on your way to Moscow.”
“Indeed again. Even if I would advise revisionists to go to the locations mentioned by Rudenko at Nuremberg in order to make archeological research there. I doubt there is a paper trail about that still remaining in Soviet archives today.”
Well, get a hold of David Irving, then. Schlageter probably knows where he is. Have Irving organize a tour.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 8:31 pm
Jeff wrote: “I look at all of the deniers that post here….including you….and all I see is rabid anti-Semitism. Frankly every denier website, for the most part, displays this same attitude.”
Depends on your definition of anti-Semitism. I don’t find that most ‘deniers’ that post here are rabid anti-Semites or even anti-Semites at all. Schlageter and I are the only posters I would call anti-Semites. Honestly, i wouldn’t be surprised to learn that most of them despise me and consider some kind of ‘fool beast’ or something. Perhaps a poll on that would be telling. But as you probably regard any criticism against some Jews, even unrelated to their Jewishness, as rabid anti-Semitism, you see anti-Semites everywhere. And I don’t find either that ‘every denier website’ displays anti-Semitism. But maybe we don’t visit the same websites.
Jeff wrote: “So, yes, based on the evidence I say your feelings towards the Jews push you towards Holocaust denial and make you incapable of seeing what’s in front of you.”
I was a revisionist before I tunred anti-Semitic. It’s because I realized what’s in front of me is smoke and mirrors that I’m a revisionist.
Jeff wrote: “So, why was Pressac there?”
I don’t know. He was, it’s said, a fan of the Third Reich. Perhaps he conducted his own investigation on Auschwitz and the Faurisson story was just added later by the Klarsfelds or somebody else?
Jeff wrote: “Does Faurrison deny sending him?”
Yes, he does.
Jeff wrote: ““En dépit d’une rumeur insistante, il me faut, une fois de plus, préciser ici que jamais J.-C. Pressac n’a été mon «collaborateur» ou mon «disciple».” – Robert Faurisson, June 2005 (http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.be/2005/06/il-y-dix-ans-la-capitulation-de-jean.html).”
That’s nice. I don’t read or speak French so the point is lost on me.”
You could have translated on Google, Professor Karbon Dioxide. 😉
It says: ” Despite a persistent rumor, I must, once again, point out that J.-C. Pressac has never been my ‘collaborator’ or my ‘disciple.’ ”
Jeff wrote: “Nope, he’s not. Sorry. If you want to tell me he’s an expert on electric chairs or lethal injection systems I’d give him the benefit of the doubt but not in this case. He gained no practical experience in the area.
I believe that Bill Armontrout (who advised Ernst Zündel to hire Leuchter), Warden of the Jefferson State Penitentiary, knows better than yourself who is a world expert on gas chambers and who is not.
Jeff wrote: “Besides, what on earth do modern gas chambers built under OSHA and EPA regulations have to do with converted Nazi gas chambers built in 1943? ”
The same poison gas – hydrogen cyanide – and the same ‘targets’ – human beings. A good beginning, isn’t it?
Jeff wrote: “Of course. Did I mention that the man that did the actual test on Leuchter’s samples said that Leuchter used incorrect methods to extract the samples? Did I mention that this same man said that Leuchter never told him what the samples were for so he used the wrong test, crushing the samples and diluting the cyanide? Oh, and still found traces?”
Sounds like words told by a man scared by Jewish organizations…
Jeff wrote: “Green wrote his response to refute Holocaust deniers. Is he not allowed to do that?”
Of course he is. I just wonder why he tried so hard to prove that no cyanide could have embedded in the walls of the ‘gas chambers’ if the Polish findings were as compelling as sometimes claimed (I noticed Holo-believers often avoid to mention that Polish ‘study’).
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 4:03 pm
Jeff wrote: “There you go with the whole accuser bit again.”
“Yeah, I know. Normal burdens of proof make you go crazy.”
No, it only proves to me that you, or any denier for that matter, don’t have proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit camps. So you hide behind smoke screens and avoid the subject.
Jeff wrote: “Talk about childish.”
“Childish, that’s what testimonial ‘evidence’ is.”
Yet I would accept it as a basis start to finding proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit and not death camps.
“So many kids in deep trouble after believing the kind man who had told them there were more candies at the back of his van… ;-)”
Irrelevant, but somewhat amusing in a twisted way.
Jeff wrote: “Wah!!!!! I don’t have to prove anything!!!!!! Go away and leave me alone!!!!!!!!!”
“Requesting that others prove a negative is childish.”
No, I’m holding you or other deniers to the same standard of proof for any historical revision. Until then you are not “revisionists” you are deniers.
Being childish is insisting you don’t have to play by the same historical method required to base historical conclusions on.
“Sounds like a quarrel between young kids.”
No, it makes deniers look like kids by throwing a temper tantrum when asked for proof of their “transit camp” theory.
“Rejecting reverse burdens of proof is not childish.”
Yes it is.
“That is grown-up smartness.”
When you don’t have answers it is smart to keeping ducking, dodging and hiding.
Jeff wrote: “Except that Himmler ordered the ghettos cleared in the General Government in July of 1942. Those were the Jews sent to the Action Reinhard Camps that deniers say were sent to the Soviet Union. They weren’t stuffed into ghettos in Poland, they were sent to the ARC, where the trail stops.”
“You believe there were ghettos in Poland only??? Cute…”
Uh, no, genius.
I’m starting to think your knowledge about the Holocaust is as piss poor as Diane’s.
It’s really simple. Himmler ordered the Polish ghettos in the General Government closed and their occupants removed by December 31st, 1942. He gave this order in July of 1942, the only exceptions being skilled workers and their families or those engaged in vital war industries. Even then he insisted that these Jews be removed as soon as a suitable replacement could be found.
This is real history, Hermie. We know at this point the Jews in the General Government, except for those Jews temporarily spared, were sent to the Reinhard Camps. Where did they go from here?
Deniers now branch off from actual history, saying the Jews went to the USSR. Well, that’s fine if you can prove it but at this point you haven’t. Until you do the theory is not viable
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 12:11 am
Jeff wrote: “No, it only proves to me that you, or any denier for that matter, don’t have proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit camps. So you hide behind smoke screens and avoid the subject.”
Where is your proof those places were extermination camps? Playground gossips aka testimonies don’t count.
Jeff wrote: “Yet I would accept it as a basis start to finding proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit and not death camps.”
Let me guess. Except testimonies by Buehler and Seyss-Inquart because both testified against our dear Holohoax conspiracy theory? Is that right?
While waiting for testimonies admissible by yourself, you can still go out and hunt Bigfoots and alien abductors. Both things are ‘proven’ by more than enough testimonies. Time for physical evidence now.
Jeff wrote: “No, I’m holding you or other deniers to the same standard of proof for any historical revision.”
Too bad your nice evidential standards were visibly away when it was time to assess the evidence founding the Holo-myth.
Jeff wrote: “This is real history, Hermie. We know at this point the Jews in the General Government, except for those Jews temporarily spared, were sent to the Reinhard Camps. Where did they go from here? Deniers now branch off from actual history, saying the Jews went to the USSR. Well, that’s fine if you can prove it but at this point you haven’t. Until you do the theory is not viable.”
Branching off from a politically-biased conspiracy theory based on a collection of unsubstantiated stories, is fine. Posturing can’t always hide the emptiness of the exterminationist file. Sorry. Blame the victorious accusers of 1945 for naively believing they could make it through forever with their ‘the nazis erased all traces of their crimes’ smoke and mirrors.
Comment by hermie — May 8, 2016 @ 6:29 am
Jeff wrote: “No, it only proves to me that you, or any denier for that matter, don’t have proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit camps. So you hide behind smoke screens and avoid the subject.”
“Where is your proof those places were extermination camps? Playground gossips aka testimonies don’t count.”
Well, let’s see. We have Himmler’s order to clear the ghettos in the General Government by December 31st, 1942, however this badly conflicted with German military operations in the Soviet Union. Himmler practically begged for his “special trains” during that Summer and Fall but only to Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, not to any places further East. We have Kube’s order to halt any further transports from Poland on July 31st, 1942, with a very express threat to eliminate any future transports without authorization (this is over a transport of 1000 Jews brought in from Warsaw to assist with labor).
I’ll remind you that Kube’s order also contained multiple references to liquidating local Jews.
We have the Hoefle Telegram with specific numbers that the Koehrer Report confirms. The Hoefle Telegram only details arrivals, no departures.
So, we have these Jews parked at these camps. I’m assuming you don’t want me to believe they all hung out there. We then go to witnesses, both direct and indirect, to figure out what happened.
Then we look at what the Poles found when they investigated the sites after the war. The Poles found ash, skeletal remains and bone fragments. They identified some areas where mass graves were.
Now we look at what archeological digs found and are finding at these camps. Digs at Belzec identified 33 mass graves while further digs at Sobibor found bodies, the area where the pyres were located and the foundations of the gas chambers.
So the convergence of evidence leads to the conclusion that these were death camps. Seeing how deniers refuse to provide evidence to the contrary leads me to the conclusion that they have jack crap.
Jeff wrote: “Yet I would accept it as a basis start to finding proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit and not death camps.”
“Let me guess. Except testimonies by Buehler and Seyss-Inquart because both testified against our dear Holohoax conspiracy theory? Is that right?”
What, that Buehler wanted Poland cleared of Jews and Seyss-Inquart thought the Jews were being resettled? Seuss-Inquart was on trial for his life, I don’t blame him for downplaying or outright lying.
“While waiting for testimonies admissible by yourself, you can still go out and hunt Bigfoots and alien abductors.”
Yay, the infamous Hermie duck!!!!!
When you bring up Bigfoot, alien abductions or witches that’s a sign you don’t have anything.
“Both things are ‘proven’ by more than enough testimonies. Time for physical evidence now.”
See the digs at the sites, plus the Polish investigations after the war.
Jeff wrote: “No, I’m holding you or other deniers to the same standard of proof for any historical revision.”
“Too bad your nice evidential standards were visibly away when it was time to assess the evidence founding the Holo-myth.”
What, a random transcript of a phone call? Various quotes from random Zionists? Try and do better, please.
Jeff wrote: “This is real history, Hermie. We know at this point the Jews in the General Government, except for those Jews temporarily spared, were sent to the Reinhard Camps. Where did they go from here? Deniers now branch off from actual history, saying the Jews went to the USSR. Well, that’s fine if you can prove it but at this point you haven’t. Until you do the theory is not viable.”
“Branching off from a politically-biased conspiracy theory based on a collection of unsubstantiated stories, is fine. Posturing can’t always hide the emptiness of the exterminationist file. Sorry. Blame the victorious accusers of 1945 for naively believing they could make it through forever with their ‘the nazis erased all traces of their crimes’ smoke and mirrors.”
In other words, no proof, only rhetoric from your side. Such a shame.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 11:59 am
Jeff wrote: “Slavs or local Jews, what’s the difference?”
“The difference is that it would have been senseless to house, guard and feed local Slavs who were not a threat to the German war effort and safety in that area (of course, the local Slavs unfit for work were not such a threat)”
The Germans were not shy about incarcerating people.
Also, if you pen them up and threaten families it is easier to get the necessary labor out of them.
“and that on the other hand the mass expelling of the individuals not needed for a country’s war effort (to be joined by their relatives & friends ‘fit for work’ later, when no longer needed)”
It didn’t happen that way. Women, children and the elderly were deported, along with able-bodied men.
“is precisely what might be expected as part of an overall territorial eviction policy as that openly advocated by the German authorities of that time.”
Again, I ask for proof.
Jeff wrote: “But a concern for the military and civil authorities that have to take care of such people….in the worst possible conditions imaginable.”
“Too bad Hitler coudn’t care less about that…”
His military did.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 12:18 am
Jeff wrote: “The Germans were not shy about incarcerating people. Also, if you pen them up and threaten families it is easier to get the necessary labor out of them.”
Are you claiming that the Germans held old Slavs in camps in order to force their relatives to work for them? Ridiculous. And suddenly, housing, guarding and feeding a number of people unable to work in camps located in chaotic Far Eastern Europe at war is no longer as impossible as you claimed so far. Insurmountable obstable surmounted! Miracle!!
Jeff wrote: “It didn’t happen that way. Women, children and the elderly were deported, along with able-bodied men.”
To the Auschwitz industrial and dispatching center. From that point, they were separated. Some Nazis on trial and some Jews with a X-ray vision (since they could patently see through the walls of the Birkenau crematoria) say their relatives unfit for work were then gassed and cremated. Revisionists and other Nazis say they were just deported elsewhere.
Jeff wrote: “Again, I ask for proof.”
See the news article below (posted by myself on May 7). Want more?
Jeff wrote: “His military did.”
Too bad the leader heading Germany at that time couldn’t care less about his military’s concerns, at least not enough to postpone or cancel his dear final & full riddance from the Jewish plague in Europe because of such a minor detail.
Comment by hermie — May 8, 2016 @ 7:00 am
Jeff wrote: “The Germans were not shy about incarcerating people. Also, if you pen them up and threaten families it is easier to get the necessary labor out of them.”
“Are you claiming that the Germans held old Slavs in camps in order to force their relatives to work for them? Ridiculous. And suddenly, housing, guarding and feeding a number of people unable to work in camps located in chaotic Far Eastern Europe at war is no longer as impossible as you claimed so far. Insurmountable obstable surmounted! Miracle!!”
Uh, the Germans did that in Poland, genius. They set up ghettos and forced the Jews to work for them. So, doing this in the Soviet Union for either local Jews or Slavs makes a great deal of sense. Also, cramming people in one location makes it easier to feed them and guard them without the added trouble of deporting them.
My own belief is that these were local Jews that the Germans stuck in these camps or ghettos.
Jeff wrote: “It didn’t happen that way. Women, children and the elderly were deported, along with able-bodied men.”
“To the Auschwitz industrial and dispatching (killing, my addition) center. From that point, they were separated.”
Why yes they were, with those unable to work then sent to the gas chambers.
“Some Nazis on trial and some Jews with a X-ray vision (since they could patently see through the walls of the Birkenau crematoria) say their relatives unfit for work were then gassed and cremated. Revisionists and other Nazis say they were just deported elsewhere.”
Where?
Jeff wrote: “Again, I ask for proof.”
“See the news article below (posted by myself on May 7). Want more?”
You mean the article that predates the invasion of the Soviet Union? The AP article? If the mass media is (was) controlled by Jews, why do you take it as gospel?
Jeff wrote: “His military did.”
“Too bad the leader heading Germany at that time couldn’t care less about his military’s concerns,”
Except that Hitler did want to win that war. Why would he jeapordize a major military operation in order to deport Jews into the same area as this military operation? Especially a man so distrustful of the Jews? Wouldn’t he be concerned by all of these Bolshevick Jews sent in behind his forces to act as spies and partisans? Didn’t Kube himself equate Jews with partisans?
“at least not enough to postpone or cancel his dear final & full riddance from the Jewish plague in Europe because of such a minor detail.”
MINOR DETAIL?
…………
Wow.
Even if I accept your premise that Hitler would jeapordize military operations I still expect the military to protest such an action. Hitler recorded his military conferences, where is the discussion of any of this? The plans for coordinating such actions, the memos and train schedules to insure the military received their men and material, etc.?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 12:18 pm
You wrote: ” Hitler recorded his military conferences, where is the discussion of any of this? The plans for coordinating such actions, the memos and train schedules to insure the military received their men and material, etc.?”
Read the testimony of Dr.Erst Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/the-testimony-of-dr-ernst-kaltenbrunner-at-the-nuremberg-imt/
Comment by furtherglory — May 8, 2016 @ 12:46 pm
What does Kaltenbruner’s testimony at Nuremberg have to do with Hitler recording his military conferences?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 2:16 pm
You wrote: “What does Kaltenbruner’s testimony at Nuremberg have to do with Hitler recording his military conferences?”
Did I write anything about Hitler’s military conferences?
This part of my blog post about Kaltenbrunner is the important part:
Begin quote: So what does all this have to do with anything? It shows how the Nuremberg IMT was conducted and how the defendants were convicted on flimsy evidence and lies told by witnesses who were allowed to give an affidavit, and then refuse to take the witness stand to be questioned by the defense. End quote
Comment by furtherglory — May 8, 2016 @ 2:43 pm
furtherglory commented on The significance of the Bug river.
in response to Jeff K.:
Jeff wrote: “The Germans were not shy about incarcerating people. Also, if you pen them up and threaten families it is easier to get the necessary labor out of them.” “Are you claiming that the Germans held old Slavs in camps in order to force their relatives to work for them? Ridiculous. And suddenly, housing, […]
“You wrote: ” Hitler recorded his military conferences, where is the discussion of any of this? The plans for coordinating such actions, the memos and train schedules to insure the military received their men and material, etc.?””
This was your comment.
“Read the testimony of Dr.Erst Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/the-testimony-of-dr-ernst-kaltenbrunner-at-the-nuremberg-imt/”
This is where you directed me.
This has nothing to do with what I said about Hitler recording his military conferences.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 3:05 pm
“Begin quote: So what does all this have to do with anything? It shows how the Nuremberg IMT was conducted and how the defendants were convicted on flimsy evidence and lies told by witnesses who were allowed to give an affidavit, and then refuse to take the witness stand to be questioned by the defense. End quote”
The IMT had its problems. I don’t disagree with that.
However, it’s a bit of a stretch to say that the defendants were convicted by lying witnesses. The IMT had tons of Nazi documents, tape recordings, speeches, video, etc., etc.
Not all of the defendants were convicted, not all of the convicted were executed.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 3:11 pm
I wrote about the IMT on several blog posts, including these two posts:
The IMT was completely and totally unfair. Look up the word “unfair” in the dictionary, and it will give the IMT as an example of something that is “unfair.”
Comment by furtherglory — May 8, 2016 @ 7:09 pm
You are apparently not familiar with the story of Hans Marsalek who was a prisoner at Mauthausen. He claimed that he took down the words of the Commandant of Mauthausen as he lay dying. Photos show that Commandant Ziereis was unconscious as he allegedly said these words, which Marselek made up later.
Comment by furtherglory — May 8, 2016 @ 2:56 pm
“You are apparently not familiar with the story of Hans Marsalek who was a prisoner at Mauthausen. He claimed that he took down the words of the Commandant of Mauthausen as he lay dying. Photos show that Commandant Ziereis was unconscious as he allegedly said these words, which Marselek made up later.”
Was Ziereis unconscious the entire time? Or just when the photograph was taken?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 3:14 pm
You wrote: “Was Ziereis unconscious the entire time? Or just when the photograph was taken?”
I visited the Mauthausen camp on several days and studied the history of the camp. I wrote about the camp and the confession at https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/08/07/the-confession-of-frank-ziereis-commandant-of-mauthausen/
At the end of the blog post above, there are 3 more posts about Mauthausen. I stayed in the town of Mauthausen and went to the camp every day to study the history of the camp.
Comment by furtherglory — May 8, 2016 @ 6:41 pm
Jeff wrote: “Uh, the Germans did that in Poland, genius. They set up ghettos and forced the Jews to work for them. So, doing this in the Soviet Union for either local Jews or Slavs makes a great deal of sense.”
Not what I said. You claimed that in Far Eastern Europe the Nazis held Jews unfit for work in concentration camps as hostages in order to force their relatives (i.e. other Jews) to work for them. Are you now claiming that the Nazis did that – i.e. set up ‘hostage camps’ – in Poland???
Jeff wrote: “Also, cramming people in one location makes it easier to feed them and guard them without the added trouble of deporting them. My own belief is that these were local Jews that the Germans stuck in these camps or ghettos.”
Nonsensical. Why would the Nazis have added to their war concerns the trouble of housing, feeding and guarding Jews who were unfit for work (and of course for anti-German activities too) and so who were also not a threat to them? Only makes sense if those people unfit for work were unneeded Jews deported further east as part of a policy of complete territorial eviction.
Jeff wrote: “Why yes they were, with those unable to work then sent to the gas chambers.”
…and then turned into soap and lampshades. Testimonial ‘evidence’…
Jeff wrote: “Where?”
Ask Rudenko, Buehler, Seyss-Inquart and others. Oops. They’re dead.
Jeff wrote: “You mean the article that predates the invasion of the Soviet Union? The AP article? If the mass media is (was) controlled by Jews, why do you take it as gospel?”
Yes, that’s what I meant. Are you implying that Jew-owned newspapers made up fake Nazi statements in order to whitewash Hitler? The Holohoax was/is Zionist atrocity propaganda and not all the Jews were Zionists. So not all the Jew-owned newspapers were Zionist propaganda organs. Moreover, in summer 1940, the Zionists hadn’t launched their media campaign of Holohoax atrocity propaganda yet. Thus this is no surprise some Jew-owned newspapers accurately reported some Nazi statements at that time.
Jeff wrote: “Except that Hitler did want to win that war. Why would he jeapordize a major military operation in order to deport Jews into the same area as this military operation? Especially a man so distrustful of the Jews? Wouldn’t he be concerned by all of these Bolshevick Jews sent in behind his forces to act as spies and partisans? ”
Are you serious? Why would Hitler have feared Jews unfit for work and held in guarded camps and ghettos? Makes no sense. Nobody ever claimed the Jews unfit for work deported to Far Eastern Europe were free to come and go as they wished once there.
Jeff wrote: “Wow. Even if I accept your premise that Hitler would jeapordize military operations I still expect the military to protest such an action. Hitler recorded his military conferences, where is the discussion of any of this?”
Your belief that Hitler would have talked about the deportation of Jewish kids, elders and women to Far Eastern European camps and ghettos in military conferences is very funny. Really.
Jeff wrote: “The plans for coordinating such actions, the memos and train schedules to insure the military received their men and material, etc.?”
They very probably got the same treatment as that of the Belzec archives. Red/Bolshevist flames and smoke. Once again, why would the Soviets have kept and brought Nazi documents debunking their own atrocity propaganda on the ‘fascist beasts’ and their alleged misdeeds?
Very cute to see you use the revisionist argument about the lack of archives [confirming the exterminationist narrative] to prove your point. Nazi bonfires (to obliterate incriminating documents) make sense and Soviet bonfires (to obliterate exonerating documents) don’t, is this what you mean?
Comment by hermie — May 9, 2016 @ 4:55 am
Jeff wrote: “Uh, the Germans did that in Poland, genius. They set up ghettos and forced the Jews to work for them. So, doing this in the Soviet Union for either local Jews or Slavs makes a great deal of sense.”
“Not what I said. You claimed that in Far Eastern Europe the Nazis held Jews unfit for work in concentration camps as hostages in order to force their relatives (i.e. other Jews) to work for them. Are you now claiming that the Nazis did that – i.e. set up ‘hostage camps’ – in Poland???”
The Nazis held Jewish families in camps in Poland.
The Nazis allowed valuable Jews to keep their families, it was part of the exemption instead of being deported.
I guess you’ve never heard of the “family camp” at Birkenau. It contained families whose head of family was considered valuable by the Nazis.
Jeff wrote: “Also, cramming people in one location makes it easier to feed them and guard them without the added trouble of deporting them. My own belief is that these were local Jews that the Germans stuck in these camps or ghettos.”
“Nonsensical. Why would the Nazis have added to their war concerns the trouble of housing, feeding and guarding Jews who were unfit for work (and of course for anti-German activities too) and so who were also not a threat to them? Only makes sense if those people unfit for work were unneeded Jews deported further east as part of a policy of complete territorial eviction.”
Again you forget that the Nazi government set up ghettos in Poland for local POLISH Jews. They contained men, women and children. The Nazis forced those Jews to work for them. Why wouldn’t the Nazis use the same system in the occupied USSR? Why deport POLISH Jews into the USSR when they already had ghettos for them in Poland? If the intention was to deport Polish Jews, why did Kube order a halt to this just as the mass deportations were ramping up?
Jeff wrote: “Why yes they were, with those unable to work then sent to the gas chambers.”
“…and then turned into soap and lampshades. Testimonial ‘evidence’…”
Denier dodging.
Jeff wrote: “Where?”
“Ask Rudenko, Buehler, Seyss-Inquart and others. Oops. They’re dead.”
Denier dodging.
Jeff wrote: “You mean the article that predates the invasion of the Soviet Union? The AP article? If the mass media is (was) controlled by Jews, why do you take it as gospel?”
“Yes, that’s what I meant. Are you implying that Jew-owned newspapers made up fake Nazi statements in order to whitewash Hitler?”
No, I just find it funny that you use newspaper articles to make points.
“The Holohoax was/is Zionist atrocity propaganda and not all the Jews were Zionists. So not all the Jew-owned newspapers were Zionist propaganda organs. Moreover, in summer 1940, the Zionists hadn’t launched their media campaign of Holohoax atrocity propaganda yet. Thus this is no surprise some Jew-owned newspapers accurately reported some Nazi statements at that time.”
No reason to report on something that hasn’t happened yet. Also, Nazi policy was deportation at that point. This changed when it was no longer an option.
Jeff wrote: “Except that Hitler did want to win that war. Why would he jeapordize a major military operation in order to deport Jews into the same area as this military operation? Especially a man so distrustful of the Jews? Wouldn’t he be concerned by all of these Bolshevick Jews sent in behind his forces to act as spies and partisans? ”
“Are you serious? Why would Hitler have feared Jews unfit for work and held in guarded camps and ghettos? Makes no sense.”
Yet this is what happened in Poland. What, did you think only healthy males were sent to ghettos?
“Nobody ever claimed the Jews unfit for work deported to Far Eastern Europe were free to come and go as they wished once there.”
But you have no proof of any camp systems for them.
Jeff wrote: “Wow. Even if I accept your premise that Hitler would jeapordize military operations I still expect the military to protest such an action. Hitler recorded his military conferences, where is the discussion of any of this?”
“Your belief that Hitler would have talked about the deportation of Jewish kids, elders and women to Far Eastern European camps and ghettos in military conferences is very funny. Really.”
What is funny is you don’t think the military didn’t need to be involved. Even if Hitler insisted on these deportations the movement of massive amounts of people, many of them unfit to work, needed consultation with the military to insure they received the troops and supplies they needed to continue the war in the USSR.
Jeff wrote: “The plans for coordinating such actions, the memos and train schedules to insure the military received their men and material, etc.?”
“They very probably got the same treatment as that of the Belzec archives. Red/Bolshevist flames and smoke. Once again, why would the Soviets have kept and brought Nazi documents debunking their own atrocity propaganda on the ‘fascist beasts’ and their alleged misdeeds?”
Denier dodging.
“Very cute to see you use the revisionist argument about the lack of archives [confirming the exterminationist narrative] to prove your point. Nazi bonfires (to obliterate incriminating documents) make sense and Soviet bonfires (to obliterate exonerating documents) don’t, is this what you mean?”
The Nazis knew what documents they needed to destroy, the Soviets didn’t.
The allies captured tons of documents in Germany. Many of these documents are just now being catalogued. Tell your denier buddies to get cracking.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 9, 2016 @ 6:03 am
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis held Jewish families in camps in Poland. The Nazis allowed valuable Jews to keep their families, it was part of the exemption instead of being deported.”
Where is your ‘Hitler changed his policies’ now? Why would the Nazis have kept in the West Jewish individuals not needed for their war effort and doomed to leave Europe forever anyway when their troops captured huge areas far from the German sphere of influence and its surroundings in Far Eastern Europe? How long do you think President Trump would keep the illegal Latinos on US soil if significant portions of Latino lands fell in his hands for a reason or another? 3 days? 4?
Jeff wrote: “Again you forget that the Nazi government set up ghettos in Poland for local POLISH Jews. They contained men, women and children.”
Depends of your definition of the word ‘local.’ The Nazis deported many Jews from Germany and German-occupied Poland to the Warsaw ghetto.
Jeff wrote: “Why wouldn’t the Nazis use the same system in the occupied USSR? ”
Because they had captured enough Soviet factories during Operation Barbarossa to know it was not a good idea to build some their own war factories close to the front.
Jeff wrote: “Why deport POLISH Jews into the USSR when they already had ghettos for them in Poland?”
Because Poland was within their own sphere of influence and the Nazis didn’t want any Jew within their sphere of influence and its surroundings a few years after the war. Your question amounts to asking ‘Why would a leader NOT expel a people he doesn’t want within his borders as soon as he has a chance to do it?’. Laughable…
Jeff wrote: “Denier dodging.”
No dodging. Only a correct assessment of the probative value of testimonial ‘evidence.’
Jeff wrote: “Denier dodging.”
No dodging again. Those guys testified about such camps and such a deportation policy. Funny to see you instantly concede the non-probative value of testimonial ‘evidence’ when some testimonies are inconvenient for your dear Holohoax conspiracy theory.
Jeff wrote: “No, I just find it funny that you use newspaper articles to make points.”
I thought you would prefer a news article rather than Nazi quotes about that. Want some Nazi quotes, Jeff?
Jeff wrote: “Yet this is what happened in Poland. What, did you think only healthy males were sent to ghettos? ”
But only young healthy people (mainly males) were involved in Partisan anti-German activities. So, as I said, there was indeed no reason to be afraid of Jews unfit for work held in guarded camps and ghettos.
Jeff wrote: “But you have no proof of any camp systems for them.”
I have the very same proof as that ‘proving’ Nazi homicidal gas chambers. Testimonies…
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis knew what documents they needed to destroy, the Soviets didn’t.”
Ha ha ha…….. The Soviets didn’t know that documents about the deportation and housing of people they had claimed to be dead during the previous years, would have destroyed their own anti-German propaganda?!? Are you serious?
Comment by hermie — May 9, 2016 @ 8:43 am
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis held Jewish families in camps in Poland. The Nazis allowed valuable Jews to keep their families, it was part of the exemption instead of being deported.”
“Where is your ‘Hitler changed his policies’ now?”
Exactly where they’ve always been.
“Why would the Nazis have kept in the West Jewish individuals not needed for their war effort and doomed to leave Europe forever anyway”
They didn’t.
The Nazis sent useless eaters in the General Government to the Reinhard Camps to die. They only kept working Jews valuable to the war effort and their families. They also kept younger Jews without families to work.
This was only temporary, these workers were going to be replaced.
“when their troops captured huge areas far from the German sphere of influence and its surroundings in Far Eastern Europe?”
Captured but hardly secure, partisans made the German hold tenuous at best. Again, while the Germans captured large areas the partisans made these areas war zones. Belorussia and the Ukraine suffered badly because of the partisans attacks and German retaliation.
“How long do you think President Trump would keep the illegal Latinos on US soil if significant portions of Latino lands fell in his hands for a reason or another? 3 days? 4?”
Probably for a long time. These illegals are an integral part of the local economy and making them suddenly vanish would be disruptive for construction, farming, landscaping, etc.
You are dipping into areas you really don’t know anything about, I’d drop it.
Trump also isn’t president yet. I pity this country if he does become president. For some reason Trump believes that he can bring his “CEO” attitude to The presidency, it doesn’t really work that way. Even his own party apparatus is leery of him, so much so that is a serious effort going on behind the scenes about denying him the nomination. That would be disastrous for the Republican Party.
Jeff wrote: “Again you forget that the Nazi government set up ghettos in Poland for local POLISH Jews. They contained men, women and children.”
“Depends of your definition of the word ‘local.’ The Nazis deported many Jews from Germany and German-occupied Poland to the Warsaw ghetto.”
They were primarily Polish. The Germans also sent gypsies to the ghetto.
Jeff wrote: “Why wouldn’t the Nazis use the same system in the occupied USSR? ”
“Because they had captured enough Soviet factories during Operation Barbarossa to know it was not a good idea to build some their own war factories close to the front.”
Who was going to work in those factories?
Jeff wrote: “Why deport POLISH Jews into the USSR when they already had ghettos for them in Poland?”
“Because Poland was within their own sphere of influence and the Nazis didn’t want any Jew within their sphere of influence and its surroundings a few years after the war.”
But you are saying that the Germans wanted to send Jews into another area in their influence? A more valuable area? That doesn’t make any sense. Especially an area still in dispute.
“Your question amounts to asking ‘Why would a leader NOT expel a people he doesn’t want within his borders as soon as he has a chance to do it?’. Laughable…”
Again, what you are saying makes no sense. The Germans could only send the Jews from an area they claimed in Poland to another area they claimed in the Soviet Union. The situation in the Soviet Union was completely unstable versus a fairly pacified one in Poland. Also, what was more valuable, Polish or Soviet territory? The Soviet territory contained more natural resources, farmland, factories, etc. You can only send the Jews to areas you control which you would want for yourself anyway.
Jeff wrote: “Denier dodging.”
“No dodging. Only a correct assessment of the probative value of testimonial ‘evidence.’”
Nope, denier dodging. Or ducking.
Jeff wrote: “Denier dodging.”
“No dodging again. Those guys testified about such camps and such a deportation policy.”
What camps? Rudenko’s camps? From what I remember Rudenko never specified who was in those camps. He also said “30,000,” not a million.
“Funny to see you instantly concede the non-probative value of testimonial ‘evidence’ when some testimonies are inconvenient for your dear Holohoax conspiracy theory.”
Nope, I just said Rudenko didn’t specify who was in those camps.
Jeff wrote: “No, I just find it funny that you use newspaper articles to make points.”
“I thought you would prefer a news article rather than Nazi quotes about that. Want some Nazi quotes, Jeff?”
You just provided some. I’ll take more if you want me to see them.
Jeff wrote: “Yet this is what happened in Poland. What, did you think only healthy males were sent to ghettos? ”
“But only young healthy people (mainly males) were involved in Partisan anti-German activities. So, as I said, there was indeed no reason to be afraid of Jews unfit for work held in guarded camps and ghettos.”
Except for the problem of transportation.
So, tell me, where are the schedules regarding transporting them?
Jeff wrote: “But you have no proof of any camp systems for them.”
“I have the very same proof as that ‘proving’ Nazi homicidal gas chambers. Testimonies…”
Unspecified Rudenko camps? Seyss-Inquart relaying what Hitler told him?
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis knew what documents they needed to destroy, the Soviets didn’t.”
“Ha ha ha…….. The Soviets didn’t know that documents about the deportation and housing of people they had claimed to be dead during the previous years, would have destroyed their own anti-German propaganda?!? Are you serious?”
Would they know where to look for these documents? Would they even know what they were seeing?
Who says that only the Soviets would have these documents?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 9, 2016 @ 11:07 am
Jeff wrote: “Exactly where they’ve always been.”
Yes, as far the ‘Holocaust’ is concerned, they are in testimonies about an alleged secret conspiracy which Goering and other top Nazis could easily deny at Nuremberg as being unknown to them. That’s what conspiracies are about after all…
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis sent useless eaters in the General Government to the Reinhard Camps to die. ”
…where their bodies completely disappeared from the face of the earth without a trace viewable by anyone but laughable Communist ‘Polish’ commissions. Fortunately we have testimonies to fill the holes. What a ludicrous story for morons!!
Jeff wrote: “Captured but hardly secure, partisans made the German hold tenuous at best. Again, while the Germans captured large areas the partisans made these areas war zones. ”
And the Germans could afford to set up special camps for people unfit for work – children, women and old people – despite that. Or will you know claim Rudenko lied about those special camps?
Jeff wrote: “Probably for a long time. These illegals are an integral part of the local economy and making them suddenly vanish would be disruptive for construction, farming, landscaping, etc.”
Believer dodging. Duck, duck, duck…dick.
Were the Jews unfit for work also part of the local economy in Hitler’s Europe?
Nobody. Because the Nazis never planned to build war factories in those areas.
Jeff wrote: “But you are saying that the Germans wanted to send Jews into another area in their influence? A more valuable area? That doesn’t make any sense.”
No, I was saying that the Germans wanted to send Jews into areas far from their own secular sphere of influence and its immediate surroundings. The Baltic states, etc. were part of the Russian secular sphere of influence.
Jeff wrote: “Also, what was more valuable, Polish or Soviet territory? The Soviet territory contained more natural resources, farmland, factories, etc. You can only send the Jews to areas you control which you would want for yourself anyway.”
Would be dumb to send the Jews you don’t want to areas you want for yourself because they would remain your problem forever if you did that. Was Madagascar an area that the Germans wanted for themselves? Of course not. It was an area as far as possible from Germany and its surroundings.
Jeff wrote: “So, tell me, where are the schedules regarding transporting them?”
Assuming the Soviets were stupid enough not to burn them immediately, probably in archives somewhere in Russia.
Jeff wrote: “What camps? Rudenko’s camps? From what I remember Rudenko never specified who was in those camps. He also said “30,000,” not a million.”
Rudenko (or rather a Soviet document – URSS-4 – to be accurate) mentioned “more than 33,000 people” unfit for work found in 3 camps (or a group of 3 subcamps) in Ozaritschi. Only 90 camps (30 if the Ozaritschi camps were subcamps being part of the same camp) of that size and the one million mark was reached. Rudenko said “at the front, behind their main line of defense, the Hitlerites had systematically constructed special concentration camps” full of people unfit for work. The word ‘systematically’ doesn’t imply that there was only a handful of such camps in Far Eastern Europe.
Jeff wrote: “Would they know where to look for these documents? Would they even know what they were seeing?”
The destruction of the entire paper trail about the deportations to Belzec by a single Soviet bomb shows how easy the destruction of such paper trails would have been / was. You’re free to depict the Soviets as total morons. But that’s laughable. Their propagandists were talented masters of lies and deception. They were not only able to produce forged documents serving their interests. Making inconvenient documents disappear was also part of their armoury. Obvious…
Comment by hermie — May 10, 2016 @ 3:15 am
Some of what you said above this didn’t make sense or didn’t come through my e-mail so I discarded it. Feel free to clarify.
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis sent useless eaters in the General Government to the Reinhard Camps to die. ”
“…where their bodies completely disappeared from the face of the earth without a trace viewable by anyone but laughable Communist ‘Polish’ commissions. Fortunately we have testimonies to fill the holes. What a ludicrous story for morons!!”
Speaking of ludicrous stories for morons, did you hear the denier story where the Germans packed the Jews up and sent them into the Soviet Union? It’s even more moronic when you realize that said deniers refuse to provide proof.
Jeff wrote: “Captured but hardly secure, partisans made the German hold tenuous at best. Again, while the Germans captured large areas the partisans made these areas war zones. ”
“And the Germans could afford to set up special camps for people unfit for work – children, women and old people – despite that. Or will you know claim Rudenko lied about those special camps?”
No, I will not claim that Rudenko lied.
But you continue to show your hypocrisy by choosing to believe Communists when it suits you but trash them when it doesn’t.
Did Rudenko call these people locals? Or foreigners?
I’ll also remind you he said 30,000. That does not equal a million by any stretch of the imagination.
Jeff wrote: “Probably for a long time. These illegals are an integral part of the local economy and making them suddenly vanish would be disruptive for construction, farming, landscaping, etc.”
“Believer dodging. Duck, duck, duck”
What are you talking about?
“…dick.”
You are what you eat, Hermie. How does that big Aryan bratwurst taste?
“Were the Jews unfit for work also part of the local economy in Hitler’s Europe?”
Are you still making a comparison between illegals in the states and Jews?
“Nobody. Because the Nazis never planned to build war factories in those areas.”
WTF are you talking about? Nobody?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 10, 2016 @ 6:37 pm
Jeff wrote: “But you are saying that the Germans wanted to send Jews into another area in their influence? A more valuable area? That doesn’t make any sense.”
“No, I was saying that the Germans wanted to send Jews into areas far from their own secular sphere of influence and its immediate surroundings. The Baltic states, etc. were part of the Russian secular sphere of influence.”
Huh? The Germans claimed the Baltic states after the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Germans wanted Belorussia, the Ukraine, the oil fields in the south, etc. They could only send the Jews to areas under their control…..and those areas included active military zones or areas riddled with partisans. Where do you think the Germans allegedly sent these Jews anyway?
Jeff wrote: “Also, what was more valuable, Polish or Soviet territory? The Soviet territory contained more natural resources, farmland, factories, etc. You can only send the Jews to areas you control which you would want for yourself anyway.”
“Would be dumb to send the Jews you don’t want to areas you want for yourself because they would remain your problem forever if you did that. Was Madagascar an area that the Germans wanted for themselves? Of course not. It was an area as far as possible from Germany and its surroundings.”
But they didn’t send any Jews to Madagascar……..
Ok, let’s start over.
You claim the Germans sent the Jews……somewhere. You have no proof, of course, but we’ll set that aside for the moment.
The Germans could only send Jews to areas they controlled, either directly through military conquest or indirectly to areas their allies controlled.
We can safely rule out Germany. We both agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out.
Not in Western Europe, the Germans deported Jews East out of France, the Netherlands, etc. Not into Hungary, Romania, etc.
Not the Baltics. The Germans “deported” the Jews out of Poland.
So that leaves the Soviet Union.
The Germans were actively engaged in a siege at Leningrad, Belorussia was an active partisan area, the Ukraine was too valuable and east of the Ukraine was a fluid war zone.
Where, then?
Jeff wrote: “So, tell me, where are the schedules regarding transporting them?”
“Assuming the Soviets were stupid enough not to burn them immediately, probably in archives somewhere in Russia.”
I see a road trip in your future, then. Let me know how it goes.
Jeff wrote: “What camps? Rudenko’s camps? From what I remember Rudenko never specified who was in those camps. He also said “30,000,” not a million.”
“Rudenko (or rather a Soviet document – URSS-4 – to be accurate) mentioned “more than 33,000 people” unfit for work found in 3 camps (or a group of 3 subcamps) in Ozaritschi. Only 90 camps (30 if the Ozaritschi camps were subcamps being part of the same camp) of that size and the one million mark was reached. Rudenko said “at the front, behind their main line of defense, the Hitlerites had systematically constructed special concentration camps” full of people unfit for work. The word ‘systematically’ doesn’t imply that there was only a handful of such camps in Far Eastern Europe.”
Well, there you go. A research area for you to start on your way to Moscow.
Jeff wrote: “Would they know where to look for these documents? Would they even know what they were seeing?”
“The destruction of the entire paper trail about the deportations to Belzec by a single Soviet bomb shows how easy the destruction of such paper trails would have been / was.”
I guess the assumption is that the Germans kept all of the paperwork for Belzec at that location. And that there were no copies.
“You’re free to depict the Soviets as total morons.”
I certainly would not.
“But that’s laughable.”
I agree. I don’t consider them morons.
“Their propagandists were talented masters of lies and deception. They were not only able to produce forged documents serving their interests. Making inconvenient documents disappear was also part of their armoury. Obvious…”
So, the Soviets made up the Holocaust?
I thought it was the British, no, wait, the Zionists.
Or the US? Or US Jews?
Sorry, can’t keep it straight.
Oh, just a bit of advice. If you want me to watch the videos you post put them in comments at the top of the post. They don’t work through my e-mail. I don’t mind looking for them if there are only 20-30 comments but that gets to be a pain if there are 200 plus comments.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 10, 2016 @ 7:16 pm
Jeff wrote: “Did Rudenko call these people locals? Or foreigners?”
Rudenko didn’t say if these people were locals or foreigners. But it’s obvious they were foreigners. The Germans had other things to do than set up special camps to house, feed and guard local Jews unable to impair their war effort in that area.
Jeff wrote: “I’ll also remind you he said 30,000. That does not equal a million by any stretch of the imagination.”
Document USSR-4 said ‘more than 33,000’ at the Ozaritschi special camp. That was just an example of a specific camp, definitely not a general figure.
Jeff wrote: “Are you still making a comparison between illegals in the states and Jews?”
Yes, I am. You used the Latino labor force to say Trump wouldn’t expel the Latino illegals from US soil if he could (what is probably true), and I answered that your dodging has no relation to the case of Jews unfit for work in Western and Central Europe.
Jeff wrote: “Huh? The Germans claimed the Baltic states after the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Germans wanted Belorussia, the Ukraine, the oil fields in the south, etc. They could only send the Jews to areas under their control…..and those areas included active military zones or areas riddled with partisans.”
The Germans never plannned to keep the Baltic states, the Ukraine and the captured areas of Western Russia for themselves after the war. That’s why they kept repatriating the ethnic Germans living there (Heim Ins Reich program) when their troops occupied those areas. Those areas were part of the secular Russian sphere of influence. The German occupation of those lands was just a wartime measure. So the Nazis had good reasons to dump their unwanted and unneeded Jews into those non-German areas. Got it now?
Jeff wrote: “The Germans could only send Jews to areas they controlled, either directly through military conquest or indirectly to areas their allies controlled. We can safely rule out Germany. We both agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out.”
Yes, we both agree on that.
Jeff wrote: “Not in Western Europe, the Germans deported Jews East out of France, the Netherlands, etc.”
True. True for all the countries surrounding the Reich. The Nazis regarded the Jews as anti-German agitators and war mongers. So in their opinion, there was no lasting peace possible with surrounding countries not Judenrein.
Jeff wrote: “Not into Hungary, Romania, etc.”
Obvious.
Jeff wrote: “Not the Baltics.”
Why not?
Jeff wrote: “The Germans “deported” the Jews out of Poland. So that leaves the Soviet Union.”
The Soviet Union and its nearest future satellites, i.e. the central and eastern part of the secular Russian ‘Pale of Settlement.’
Jeff wrote: “The Germans were actively engaged in a siege at Leningrad, Belorussia was an active partisan area, the Ukraine was too valuable and east of the Ukraine was a fluid war zone.”
Irrelevant. Some guarded special camps full of Jewish children, women and elders didn’t threaten and impair the German war effort there. Minimum investment. Zero troubles.
Jeff wrote: “Where, then?”
Western Russia, Belarus, Baltics, Ukraine, or a portion of that area, i.e. ‘the northeast of Europe’ like Buehler said or in other words ‘on the eastern border of the German sphere of interest’ like Seyss-Inquart said. Note that all the special camps mentioned by Rudenko at Nuremberg were located within that area.
Jeff wrote: “I see a road trip in your future, then. Let me know how it goes.”
Indeed. If not in my future, in some revisionists’ future.
Jeff wrote: “Well, there you go. A research area for you to start on your way to Moscow.”
Indeed again. Even if I would advise revisionists to go to the locations mentioned by Rudenko at Nuremberg in order to make archeological research there. I doubt there is a paper trail about that still remaining in Soviet archives today.
Jeff wrote: “So, the Soviets made up the Holocaust? I thought it was the British, no, wait, the Zionists. Or the US? Or US Jews? Sorry, can’t keep it straight.”
They all contributed because they all had interests in demonizing the Germans. Like during the previous world war. But the Zionists were the main originators of the Holohoax during WW2 because their dear land grabbing adventure in Palestine was about to crash very soon if nothing significant was attempted to have the British White Paper of May 1939 cancelled before its deadline.
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 3:34 am
Jeff wrote: “But a concern for the military and civil authorities that have to take care of such people….in the worst possible conditions imaginable.”
A very good reason for not locking up local Slavs unfit for work …and anti-German activities… in Rudenko’s special concentration camps. So according to you, who were the people held in those camps? Who were those mysterious people regarded by the Nazi authorities as unfit for work AND nevertheless to be held in special camps located in chaotic Far Eastern Europe at war?
Comment by hermie — May 8, 2016 @ 12:00 am
As to the horrifying surfacing of bones from a camp or these camps (who knows what the reigning Horror Disneyland tale is now?). Bones of what? Jews? How do we know they were Jews’ bones, if such a thing existed. They have the tattoos on the wrist bones? And if there is this huge migration (UP) of such remains, is this a phenomenon in only Poland? That all the dozens of camps are now spewing forth the remains of their ‘victims’? Are they only Jews of which the earth vomits up the remains (actually that isn’t too difficult to understand or believe).
Or is this Europe wide? As there were a number of camps (at once thought to be death camps) in Germany, are these camps also going to vomit up any of the remains? Here’s the kicker, though – all those cities firebombed in Germany – all those mass graves where German civilians’ bodies were bulldozed into them – are they now popping up all over Germany? Dang, I thought they were having trouble with the tsunami (Jim Rizoli’s term) of illegals, the brain dead-ness of Angela Merkel and now they have to worry about tripping over Aunt Hilde’s skull when they walk downtown or go on a picnic in the countryside????!!!!
Or is this worldwide? What about those buried at sea? Nothing like tidal pools and hurricanes and earthquakes to dislodge the remains of those buried at sea. The tourist industry in Hawaii is going to take a beating when the 3000 soldiers from the Arizona resurface up and down the coast, especially in Waikiki.
So, Jeff, tell me another story … better still – do you see some HUMOR FODDER, Talbot for your next installment of TALBOT TALES?
STAY TUNED…..
Comment by Diane King — May 3, 2016 @ 11:48 am
Operation Reinhardt camp deaths by deady gas….none!
Treblinka was open Approx 8 months so you’re telling me Approx 800,000 were killed in 8 months??? 100,000 K per month???
Don’t think so, dream on Holohucksters.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — April 30, 2016 @ 3:28 pm
You wrote: “Operation camp deaths by deadly gas…none!”
I believe that you are correct. The Bug river is shallow enough to wade across it in summer and in winter, the water is frozen solid, so that one can walk across it. I think that the Jews were chased across this river into parts unknown. There is no evidence of Zyklon-B being used in this location.
Allegedly, the bodies of the Jews were burned, and the ashes were buried. The Jews have put memorial stones over the spot where the ashes were allegedly buried. There are also memorial stones over the spot where the bodies were allegedly burned in the open air. This is not the way that a German person would have done it. If the Nazis had really wanted to kill Jews, they would have built real gas chambers in Warsaw and killed them there with Zyklon-B. They might even have consulted with Fred Leuchter, who is of German heritage, so they would have trusted his advice on the matter.
Comment by furtherglory — May 1, 2016 @ 5:56 am
furtherglory wrote: ” If the Nazis had really wanted to kill Jews, they would have built real gas chambers in Warsaw and killed them there with Zyklon-B. ”
Or even better, with carbon monoxide from ‘wood gas generators’ (fueled by wood, charcoal, coal or coke; emitting highly toxic fumes). What a great idea to build gas chambers killing very efficiently with wood at alleged slaughterhouses situated amidst large forests.
The alleged homicidal gas chambers working with Zyklon-B were also a very poor, if not moronic and nonsensical, choice concerning Auschwitz. There was a large gasification plant at Auschwitz 3. One of the byproducts of gasification is carbon monoxide. So the Germans had almost unlimited amounts of wasted carbon monoxide at their disposal at Auschwitz. But we are supposed to believe they rather played pouring pellets of Zyklon-B through wire mesh columns into cold underground morgues…
Comment by hermie — May 1, 2016 @ 7:45 am
“Or even better, with carbon monoxide from ‘wood gas generators’ (fueled by wood, charcoal, coal or coke; emitting highly toxic fumes). What a great idea to build gas chambers killing very efficiently with wood at alleged slaughterhouses situated amidst large forests.”
Except for the fact that you risk fire or explosion, plus the fact that sticking a wood gas generator in an enclosed area posed as much risk to the operator as it does to the people you are trying to kill. A gas or Diesel engine is safer. Plus, a fuel engine is more efficient in its use of fuel.
Wait, I thought the amount of wood available made it too difficult to burn bodies????? Nice to see you admit that the SS had a plentiful supply of wood for their purposes.
“The alleged homicidal gas chambers working with Zyklon-B were also a very poor, if not moronic and nonsensical, choice concerning Auschwitz. There was a large gasification plant at Auschwitz 3. One of the byproducts of gasification is carbon monoxide. So the Germans had almost unlimited amounts of wasted carbon monoxide at their disposal at Auschwitz. But we are supposed to believe they rather played pouring pellets of Zyklon-B through wire mesh columns into cold underground morgues…”
So your solution is to build some type of pipeline from Monowitz to Birkenau? Not a very efficient use of men and materials, plus you run the risk of the pipe getting disrupted in some way. Zyclon B is portable and easily accessible.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 12:11 pm
Let’s not forget that it takes approximately four to five hundred pounds of wood to cremate one body so where are the all of the wood piles. Then you have to take all that ash mixed with the wood and put it somewhere that would be 8 pounds of Ash per body plus the leftover ash from the wood burning then you multiply that times millions of bodies you eoild have a lot of Ash to put somewhere would be actually a mountain of Ash somewhere cause they say they put the ash on the roads or in the rivers but I really don’t see any example of that happening because you would think the people would be pretty mad if they are put in the ash in the rivers and you would think the Jews would be pretty mad if they were putting the ashes on the roads so people can walk and drive their cars and trucks over… seems to me that would be a little disrespectful.
So many questions and so many silly answers.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 12:17 pm
Added to the mammoth amounts of EVERYTHING required to kill and dispose of the alleged number, at some point with the numerous air photos taken of the camps, at least ONE OF THEM would have shown this activity – MASSIVE road construction using ash (I’d hate to have to travel on that road), chopping down numerous trees, hauling them to the pyres, building the pyres, if possible, lighting the pyres. EVERYONE WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT. But as I stated, this would have been visible in ONE of the aerial photos. BUT THERE WAS NOT ONE!
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 5:54 pm
Good points about the pictures ….no pictures of any of this and then they give us this baloney about the mass graves again no pictures of the mass Graves either you would think they would be happy to be able to provide pictures of the mass Graves with all that Ash and bones and everything in it but nope nothing because they never had them that’s why they can talk all they want they can say Yep this is how it happened but they don’t have any evidence to show it happened not one picture of a homicidal gassing no one picture I’m a homicidal grave showing all this that’s all we’re asking is just one picture please.
Nothing nothing nothing except all this rhetoric. just what they want you to believe with no evidence please give me some evidence that’s not written on paper that you can actually see with your eyes.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 6:04 pm
Hermie was kidding, Jeff K regarding the wood – had they used wood in the way they were accused, there’d not be a forest left in Poland.
Again, Zyklon B is a completely inadequate substance for killing people (the Germans would have known this). I like to quote Jim Rizoli here: “So essentially, the myth is summarized as 6 million jews being shipped to Poland (during a 2-front war) to be killed with bug spray.”
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 5:51 pm
“Again, Zyklon B is a completely inadequate substance for killing people (the Germans would have known this). I like to quote Jim Rizoli here: “So essentially, the myth is summarized as 6 million jews being shipped to Poland (during a 2-front war) to be killed with bug spray.””
It really is sad to see your piss poor understanding of history.
Diane, the SS didn’t have to ship 6 million Jews anywhere. The Einsatsgruppen, Police Auxiliary Units, SS cavalry and local collaboraters shot approximately 2 million Jews on the Eastern Front between 1941-1943. You got your wish, their murderers shot them very close to where they lived, they didn’t send them anywhere. These victims were Polish and Soviet Jews. Next, the SS sent POLISH Jews living in the General Government to the Action Reinhard Camps where they gassed them to death using Carbon Monoxide. There were some foreign Jews and gypsies killed but the primary victims were local Polish Jews. Only Birkenau utilized Zyclon B in a large scale and the primary victims there were Hungarian, Polish and French Jews, with a few other foreign Jews added. Chelmno murdered the Jews in the Warthgau District of Poland, again with a few gypsies and others.
The rest of the victims died through maltreatment, disease and hunger.
Get it straight, Diane. If you are going to piss on the memory of the dead at least do them the courtesy of correctly identifying how and where they died.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 6:44 pm
Jeff you can’t prove what you say it sounds nice but you can’t prove it show us where they were shot where the lived. Where are the graves where is the forensic evidence to show how they died.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 6:47 pm
I’ll toss the ball back in your court, Jim. Provide proof that the Reinhard Camps were transit camps, including where the Jews were sent from these locations.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 6:50 pm
Jeff you are disappointing me now I asked you a question that I would like to get an answer for and you divert the question to another question. That’s how the Jews do things too they never ever give you an answer to what you are asking them they always either make fun of you denigrate you insult you make at adhominem attacks about you but they never get back to the question that you asked them in the beginning. Why don’t we just deal with one thing at a time I asked you the question show me where these things happened. I’m a very open honest person when I’m showed something I believe it but I don’t believe what’s written down as fact unless I see a picture or can see some sort of fact about it somewhere I don’t think I’m being unreasonable here.. I can’t prove a negative that’s all I know is the people in Treblinka went somewhere and they definitely weren’t killed because there’s no trace of them being anywhere so the only thing I can say is they ended up somewhere. I can’t prove it but you also can’t prove that they were killed in homicidal gas Chambers.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 6:58 pm
I’m bored with this, Jim.
I’ve already given you the results of the Poles (except for Sobibor, sorry, can’t get it to work).
Now it’s up to the “revisionists,” Jim. You say you can’t prove a negative.
Why?
It is the crux of the matter, Jim. Nobody denies that the Jews were shipped to these camps. They didn’t just hang out there. If they didn’t die, where did they go?
Also, none of you can explain how it was possible to ship 1.5 million Jews into an active war zone. That doesn’t make any sense.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 7:13 pm
Jeff it also doesn’t make sense that birkenau had 300 Barracks that could house tens of thousands of people for them to be there to be executed in homicidal gas Chambers. How about answering that one why would they have so many barracks if they were just executing these people as they got off the trains. They had first rate Hospitals they had every amenity there to take care of people why would they put all that into operation when they were just executing these people as they got off the train does not make sense.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 7:17 pm
“Jeff it also doesn’t make sense that birkenau had 300 Barracks that could house tens of thousands of people for them to be there to be executed in homicidal gas Chambers. How about answering that one why would they have so many barracks if they were just executing these people as they got off the trains.”
Jim, if you had any concept of the history of Birkenau you would understand why there are so many barracks. Himmler originally envisioned Birkenau as a POW camp for Red Army soldiers. Birkenau was supposed to house 150,000 POWs, however, plans changed when the decision was made to utilize the POWs as labor in Germany. Himmler then decided to house Jews instead for labor. The idea of mass killing began as a way to eliminate useless mouths, those who couldn’t work.
“They had first rate Hospitals they had every amenity there to take care of people why would they put all that into operation when they were just executing these people as they got off the train does not make sense.”
So, you are one of those deniers who equate Birkenau with Club Med.
Essentially Auschwitz-Birkenau-Monowitz was a small city, with German SS and civilians. They needed those facilities for them and their families. Also, in 1942 Himmler and others began initiatives to increase productivity in the concentration camps for the war effort and these initiatives did drop the death rate of the workers in the camps. These measures included an official increase in rations and medical care. This did not include Jews to any large degree and these measures were superficial at best.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 7:42 pm
Jeff wrote: “Except for the fact that you risk fire or explosion”
C’mon, Jeff. During WW2, there were over 500,000 vehicles powered by wood gas generators in Europe alone.
Jeff wrote: “plus the fact that sticking a wood gas generator in an enclosed area posed as much risk to the operator as it does to the people you are trying to kill”
Why would the operator of such gas chambers have had to work in an enclosed area? A large wood gas generator stuck to one of the exterior walls of such ‘death houses’, and your major technical issue would have been circumvented.
Jeff wrote: “A gas or Diesel engine is safer.”
Yes, safer for the people inside the ‘gas chambers.’ 😉
Diesel engines are even so safe, they could have killed nobody. That’s the reason why mining industries use diesel engines.
Jeff wrote: ” Plus, a fuel engine is more efficient in its use of fuel.”
You can’t promote both efficiency and the use of gas or diesel engines [rather than wood gas generators] to mass murder people in enclosed areas. Antithetical…
Jeff wrote: “Wait, I thought the amount of wood available made it too difficult to burn bodies????? ”
Are you trying to claim that the amount of wood needed to cremate 2 million people to ashes on outdoor pyres would have been identical to the amount of wood needed to gas 2 million people to death with wood gas generators in airtight rooms? Ridiculous.
Jeff wrote: “Nice to see you admit that the SS had a plentiful supply of wood for their purposes.”
Were the areas around the Reinhardt camps completely deforested during WW2? They weren’t? Too bad because the outdoor cremation of 2 million corpses would have required the burning of entire forests. Still no delivery notes for the supply of literally mountains of wood to the Reinhardt camps, anywhere on sight? No? Why am i not surprised?
Jeff wrote: “So your solution is to build some type of pipeline from Monowitz to Birkenau?”
Yes, it is. Or the upbuilding of gas chambers and crematory facilities at Monowitz (Auschwitz 3) rather than at Birkenau (Auschwitz 2). Or the use of compressors to collect and bottle carbon monoxide at Monowitz and the mass gassing of people at Birkenau with such gas bottles.
Jeff wrote: “Not a very efficient use of men and materials, plus you run the risk of the pipe getting disrupted in some way.”
Hilarious to see Reality deniers aka Holocaust believers use the efficiency thing, the latter always trying to save their so dear gassing myth from its own technical absurdities with lousy ‘arguments’ such as “Hey, German technology was not so advanced after all” and “There was a war on and the Nazi mass murderers had to do their job with what they had at their disposal.” Where is your MacGyver Holocaust now, Jeff? 😉
Jeff wrote: ” Zyclon B is portable and easily accessible.”
Carbon monoxide too. Already forgotten the alleged CO gas bottles supposedly used at the German euthanasia centers and Majdanek???
Comment by hermie — May 1, 2016 @ 8:52 pm
Jeff wrote: “Except for the fact that you risk fire or explosion”
“C’mon, Jeff. During WW2, there were over 500,000 vehicles powered by wood gas generators in Europe alone.”
What does that have to do with anything? The operators understood the dangers of such vehicles. They are prone to fires and explosions, not to mention the copious amounts of Carbon Monoxide they put out. The engines were a necessity, not a choice.
Jeff wrote: “plus the fact that sticking a wood gas generator in an enclosed area posed as much risk to the operator as it does to the people you are trying to kill”
“Why would the operator of such gas chambers have had to work in an enclosed area? A large wood gas generator stuck to one of the exterior walls of such ‘death houses’, and your major technical issue would have been circumvented.”
You still run the risk of the generator exploding or catching the building on fire. Why run that risk? You risk injuring or killing the SS and possibly burning down the camp.
Jeff wrote: “A gas or Diesel engine is safer.”
“Yes, safer for the people inside the ‘gas chambers.’😉”
Hey, I keep proposing an experiment of a bunch of deniers sitting in a garage with a large diesel truck running. Nobody takes me up on it, I wonder why…
I also wonder why deniers can’t figure out that people need to breathe. If you pack enough people in an air tight room…or even a semi-airtight room….people will die. Add a toxin and they die faster. Diesel exhaust still contains Carbon and Sulphur Dioxide, plus “black soot” particles large enough to suffocate a person.
You can always modify a Diesel engine to put out more Carbon Monoxide. However, given the evidence I think Treblinka used a petrol and not a Diesel engine.
“Diesel engines are even so safe, they could have killed nobody. That’s the reason why mining industries use diesel engines.”
Yet, safety manuals for diesel generators say not to use them inside. Hhhhhhhmmmmm, I wonder why.
Jeff wrote: ” Plus, a fuel engine is more efficient in its use of fuel.”
“You can’t promote both efficiency and the use of gas or diesel engines [rather than wood gas generators] to mass murder people in enclosed areas. Antithetical…”
Huh?
Hindsight is always 20/20. I’m sure that if it had occurred to the SS running the camp they may have used a gas generator. However, they didn’t have one in camp, those camps used fossil fuel for power.
Jeff wrote: “Wait, I thought the amount of wood available made it too difficult to burn bodies????? ”
“Are you trying to claim that the amount of wood needed to cremate 2 million people to ashes on outdoor pyres would have been identical to the amount of wood needed to gas 2 million people to death with wood gas generators in airtight rooms? Ridiculous.”
Why? Why not just put one in the camps to use for ordinary purposes if they were transit camps?
Jeff wrote: “Nice to see you admit that the SS had a plentiful supply of wood for their purposes.”
“Were the areas around the Reinhardt camps completely deforested during WW2? They weren’t?
Too bad because the outdoor cremation of 2 million corpses would have required the burning of entire forests. Still no delivery notes for the supply of literally mountains of wood to the Reinhardt camps, anywhere on sight? No? Why am i not surprised?”
For what, to burn naked, decaying corpses? Almost 7,000 Dresden victims burned to ash in a couple of weeks….and they were fully clothed fresh corpses. Are you saying the Germans denuded the surrounding forests to accomplish this feat?
Jeff wrote: “So your solution is to build some type of pipeline from Monowitz to Birkenau?”
“Yes, it is. Or the upbuilding of gas chambers and crematory facilities at Monowitz (Auschwitz 3)”
Ridiculous. Monowitz was a fully functioning industrial plant staffed with IG Farben employees. Not a particularly secret place to carry out mass murder.
The gas chambers were originally planned for Birkenau as morgues. Why move them when they were so close to completion?
“rather than at Birkenau (Auschwitz 2). Or the use of compressors to collect and bottle carbon monoxide at Monowitz and the mass gassing of people at Birkenau with such gas bottles.”
Again, hindsight is always 20/20. The fact that the SS used one method over another proves nothing.
Jeff wrote: “Not a very efficient use of men and materials, plus you run the risk of the pipe getting disrupted in some way.”
“Hilarious to see Reality deniers aka Holocaust believers use the efficiency thing, the latter always trying to save their so dear gassing myth from its own technical absurdities with lousy ‘arguments’ such as “Hey, German technology was not so advanced after all” and “There was a war on and the Nazi mass murderers had to do their job with what they had at their disposal.”
I’m the last person to talk about “German efficiency,”. That’s a denier thing.
“Where is your MacGyver Holocaust now, Jeff?😉”
You didn’t address my statement. Duck, duck, duck.
Again, why bother to build a pipeline when your killing agent is very portable, you have a large supply on hand and it is easy to replace?
Jeff wrote: ” Zyclon B is portable and easily accessible.”
“Carbon monoxide too. Already forgotten the alleged CO gas bottles supposedly used at the German euthanasia centers and Majdanek???”
Hoess didn’t think Carbon Monoxide was an efficient way to kill people. Hence the use of ZB.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 10:59 pm
Jeff wrote: “The operators understood the dangers of such vehicles. They are prone to fires and explosions, not to mention the copious amounts of Carbon Monoxide they put out.”
Not only the operators, the Nazi authorities too…
Nazi poster of 1943 stating:
“Attention – carbon monoxide – Danger of Poisoning!
Do not start the generator except in the open or else vent gases to the outdoors! Do not refill in enclosed spaces.”
And yes, the prospect of this (below) was probably the worst nightmare of leaders with millions of their men falling on all the battlefields of Europe at that time…
Jeff wrote: “I also wonder why deniers can’t figure out that people need to breathe. If you pack enough people in an air tight room…or even a semi-airtight room….people will die. Add a toxin and they die faster. Diesel exhaust still contains Carbon and Sulphur Dioxide, plus “black soot” particles large enough to suffocate a person.”
Stop dancing around this thing. You’re gonna get hurt. 😉
Academia has now fully dropped the diesel gassing canard. No need to waste our time with that…
Jeff wrote: “Yet, safety manuals for diesel generators say not to use them inside. Hhhhhhhmmmmm, I wonder why.”
Over cautiousness maybe. Very probably also because black soot is carcinogenic. Will you now try to claim that the Nazis wanted to murder the Jews of Europe with a 40-year delay effect? A Cancerocaust by gas???
Jeff wrote: “Why not just put one in the camps to use for ordinary purposes if they were transit camps?”
So you’re now implying that the lack of highly toxic wood gas generators at the Reinhardt camps proves those places were murder factories. Hysterical! And also very dumb…
Jeff wrote: “For what, to burn naked, decaying corpses? Almost 7,000 Dresden victims burned to ash in a couple of weeks….and they were fully clothed fresh corpses. Are you saying the Germans denuded the surrounding forests to accomplish this feat?”
To ash? Really? Cremation to ash is not needed to make dead bodies safe for burial in the event of epidemics? Holohoaxsters’ pathetic attempt to take advantage of the Dresden sanitary pyres for their own agenda shows how desperate they are, IMO…
7,000 bodies cremated in let’s say 3 weeks, that makes 333 bodies cremated every day. How many days to cremate 2,000,000 bodies at that rate? 6,006 days…or 16 years and 6 months!! As you can see, even with your groundless assertion about cremations to ash at Dresden, the Holohoax falls under the huge weight of its own absurd claims once again.
Jeff wrote: “I’m the last person to talk about “German efficiency,”. That’s a denier thing.”
And you talk about German efficiency (no quotation marks needed, racist Jewish supremacist) ONLY when it suits you and your agenda. All other times, you fiercely fight against that argument like a desperate debater with a political agenda dear to his heart and a founding myth full of holes. Funny sight.
Jeff wrote: “Hoess didn’t think Carbon Monoxide was an efficient way to kill people. Hence the use of ZB.”
German efficiency once again put aside because inconvenient. Oops. You did it again, Britney… 😉
The Holohoax here stumbles over the dumb allegation that Himmler would have tasked, without additional guidance and help of engineers, a guy barely educated with the implementation of the alleged largest mass murder in history. This absurd claim amounts to alleging that Hitler tasked a gang of schoolboys with the design of his V2-rockets and other ‘Wonder Weapons.’ Laughable.
Comment by hermie — May 2, 2016 @ 1:08 am
Jeff wrote: “I also wonder why deniers can’t figure out that people need to breathe. If you pack enough people in an air tight room…or even a semi-airtight room….people will die. Add a toxin and they die faster. Diesel exhaust still contains Carbon and Sulphur Dioxide, plus “black soot” particles large enough to suffocate a person.”
“Stop dancing around this thing. You’re gonna get hurt. 😉
Academia has now fully dropped the diesel gassing canard. No need to waste our time with that…”
Then why keep bringing it up?
I’ve looked at both sides of the whole diesel issue, whether or not a Diesel engine was used. In the end I don’t think it matters. You can adjust a Diesel engine if you need to, plus diesel exhaust is dangerous enough with sulphur and Carbon dioxide.
Jeff wrote: “Yet, safety manuals for diesel generators say not to use them inside. Hhhhhhhmmmmm, I wonder why.”
“Over cautiousness maybe. Very probably also because black soot is carcinogenic. Will you now try to claim that the Nazis wanted to murder the Jews of Europe with a 40-year delay effect? A Cancerocaust by gas???”
Not to mention sulphur and carbon dioxide are dangerous…..
Jeff wrote: “Why not just put one in the camps to use for ordinary purposes if they were transit camps?”
“So you’re now implying that the lack of highly toxic wood gas generators at the Reinhardt camps proves those places were murder factories. Hysterical! And also very dumb…”
Uh, no, you are making an ASS of yourself by ASSuming. What I’m saying is that as far as I know the camps lacked wood gas generators. I find it curious that they didn’t.
Jeff wrote: “For what, to burn naked, decaying corpses? Almost 7,000 Dresden victims burned to ash in a couple of weeks….and they were fully clothed fresh corpses. Are you saying the Germans denuded the surrounding forests to accomplish this feat?”
“To ash? Really? Cremation to ash is not needed to make dead bodies safe for burial in the event of epidemics? Holohoaxsters’ pathetic attempt to take advantage of the Dresden sanitary pyres for their own agenda shows how desperate they are, IMO…”
Hermie, the Germans burned those corpses to ash. Are you now denying that they did?
“7,000 bodies cremated in let’s say 3 weeks,”
You are already wrong. Sources say two weeks. That source includes David Irving. Everything you say after this point is wrong. Also those were fresh clothed corpses, not decaying, naked ones.
“that makes 333 bodies cremated every day. How many days to cremate 2,000,000 bodies at that rate? 6,006 days…or 16 years and 6 months!! As you can see, even with your groundless assertion about cremations to ash at Dresden, the Holohoax falls under the huge weight of its own absurd claims once again.”
Everything you said above is wrong. I stopped reading it after the first sentence.
Jeff wrote: “I’m the last person to talk about “German efficiency,”. That’s a denier thing.”
“And you talk about German efficiency (no quotation marks needed, racist Jewish supremacist)”
Am I back to being a Jew? I can play along if it makes you feel better.
“ONLY when it suits you and your agenda. All other times, you fiercely fight against that argument like a desperate debater with a political agenda dear to his heart and a founding myth full of holes. Funny sight.”
No, I just think it’s funny that deniers jibber-jabber on about German efficiency as though it mattered. Hoess and the others were smart people. They used available materials and made due. Really a lot of the German military did the same thing. They used French trucks, Czech and Soviet tanks, etc.
Jeff wrote: “Hoess didn’t think Carbon Monoxide was an efficient way to kill people. Hence the use of ZB.”
“German efficiency once again put aside because inconvenient. Oops. You did it again, Britney… ;-)”
See above. Stop being boring.
“The Holohoax here stumbles over the dumb allegation that Himmler would have tasked, without additional guidance and help of engineers, a guy barely educated with the implementation of the alleged largest mass murder in history. This absurd claim amounts to alleging that Hitler tasked a gang of schoolboys with the design of his V2-rockets and other ‘Wonder Weapons.’ Laughable.”
Who said they didn’t use engineers?
Himmler believed in giving his subordinates tasks and expected them to solve it themselves by consulting experts. For example, he ordered the expansion of Auschwitz over the objection of Hoess and others by telling them to consult the experts.
I realize a lot of your jibber-jabber is to stop me from saying the following:
The one thing you can do stop all of this is to show, with proof, where the Jews went if the camps were transit camps and not death camps.
There you go, ball back in your court. Let me know when you have something.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 6:53 am
Jeff wrote: “Then why keep bringing it up?”
You’re the only one able to answer this one, since you’ve brought the Diesel thing on here. The first hit for the word “Diesel” (ctrl + f) on this page is a comment written by yourself.
Jeff wrote: ” I’ve looked at both sides of the whole diesel issue, whether or not a Diesel engine was used. In the end I don’t think it matters. You can adjust a Diesel engine if you need to, plus diesel exhaust is dangerous enough with sulphur and Carbon dioxide.”
Probably unimportant indeed. Dropping the Diesel canard only makes your side lose Raul Hilberg, Kurt Gerstein and Adolf Eichmann, among others, after all… 😉
Jeff wrote: “Not to mention sulphur and carbon dioxide are dangerous…..”
Dangerous or lethal?
Jeff wrote: “What I’m saying is that as far as I know the camps lacked wood gas generators. I find it curious that they didn’t.”
Does anybody care about what you find curious and not curious? Perhaps you could finally find the truth about the Holohoax if you stopped wasting your time with insignificant curiosities like that one.
Jeff wrote: “Hermie, the Germans burned those corpses to ash. Are you now denying that they did?”
No, I’m not. I’m just asking for evidence they did. Still missing so far. Or am I supposed to just take your words at face value?
Jeff wrote: “You are already wrong. Sources say two weeks.”
OK. My bad. So that was rather 500 bodies per day. ‘Only’ 4,000 days – or 11 years – to burn 2,000,000 corpses at that rate.
Jeff wrote: “Everything you said above is wrong.”
Don’t waste your precious time explaining how and why.
Jeff wrote: “I stopped reading it after the first sentence.”
Like any 1st-class researcher… 😉
How do you know something you didn’t even read is wrong?
Jeff wrote: “Who said they didn’t use engineers?”
The laughable Kula columns and reverse ventilation systems did say that…
Jeff wrote: “Himmler believed in giving his subordinates tasks and expected them to solve it themselves by consulting experts.”
Source for that? Hilberg’s mind-reading ‘discoveries’?
Jeff wrote: “For example, he ordered the expansion of Auschwitz over the objection of Hoess and others by telling them to consult the experts.”
What kind of experts were needed to build a few additional barracks and barb wired fences? Polish farmers living in the vicinity of the camp?
Jeff wrote: “The one thing you can do stop all of this is to show, with proof, where the Jews went if the camps were transit camps and not death camps.”
I didn’t change my mind about your requested reverse burden of proof during your short holidays. I still think I don’t have to prove the survival of people you and yours have so miserably failed to prove dead. Welcome back to the real world! 😉
If you don’t like normal burdens of proof, you can still collect for posterity a few additional testimonies about Nazi gas chambers, haunted mansions, witchcraft, alien abductions or any other ‘fact’ provable with testimonial ‘evidence’…
Comment by hermie — May 2, 2016 @ 8:19 am
Jeff wrote: “Then why keep bringing it up?”
“You’re the only one able to answer this one, since you’ve brought the Diesel thing on here. The first hit for the word “Diesel” (ctrl + f) on this page is a comment written by yourself.”
I’ll never mention it again if you won’t.
Jeff wrote: ” I’ve looked at both sides of the whole diesel issue, whether or not a Diesel engine was used. In the end I don’t think it matters. You can adjust a Diesel engine if you need to, plus diesel exhaust is dangerous enough with sulphur and Carbon dioxide.”
“Probably unimportant indeed. Dropping the Diesel canard only makes your side lose Raul Hilberg, Kurt Gerstein and Adolf Eichmann, among others, after all… ;-)”
What do you mean by “lose?”
They made a mistake (maybe). It happens. All agree that an engine was used to kill the prisoners. I honestly don’t think it matters, Diesel or petrol. The victims are equally dead either way and it was only Treblinka that the dispute is over. The other two camps were definitely petrol, not Diesel.
Jeff wrote: “Not to mention sulphur and carbon dioxide are dangerous…..”
“Dangerous or lethal?”
Lethal.
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/sulfurdi.html
Jeff wrote: “What I’m saying is that as far as I know the camps lacked wood gas generators. I find it curious that they didn’t.”
“Does anybody care about what you find curious and not curious? Perhaps you could finally find the truth about the Holohoax if you stopped wasting your time with insignificant curiosities like that one.”
Apparently you care enough to spend the time replying to me.
Why is it insignificant if deniers say that it is a better execution method than using an internal combustion engine?
Jeff wrote: “Hermie, the Germans burned those corpses to ash. Are you now denying that they did?”
“No, I’m not. I’m just asking for evidence they did. Still missing so far. Or am I supposed to just take your words at face value?”
Well, David Irving said it in his book about Dresden (full disclosure, I’ve never read the book, just the snippets about the Altmarkt pyres). Isn’t good enough for you?
Jeff wrote: “You are already wrong. Sources say two weeks.”
“OK. My bad. So that was rather 500 bodies per day. ‘Only’ 4,000 days – or 11 years – to burn 2,000,000 corpses at that rate.”
Where are you getting 2,000,000 corpses? The COMBINED death toll for the ORC and Chelmno is around 1.5 million dead.
Are you saying the Germans couldn’t build more pyres at these camps? Also, you keep forgetting (or ignoring) that for the most part the Germans were burning already naked decomposing corpses, not freshly dead clothed corpses.
Jeff wrote: “Everything you said above is wrong.”
“Don’t waste your precious time explaining how and why.”
Just did.
Jeff wrote: “I stopped reading it after the first sentence.”
“Like any 1st-class researcher… ;-)”
What can I say, I didn’t want to waste my time.
“How do you know something you didn’t even read is wrong?”
Because your timetable was off.
Jeff wrote: “Who said they didn’t use engineers?”
“The laughable Kula columns and reverse ventilation systems did say that…”
Yet somehow they made it work. Bully for them.
Jeff wrote: “Himmler believed in giving his subordinates tasks and expected them to solve it themselves by consulting experts.”
“Source for that? Hilberg’s mind-reading ‘discoveries’?”
Laurence Rees, Auschwitz, a New History.
Jeff wrote: “For example, he ordered the expansion of Auschwitz over the objection of Hoess and others by telling them to consult the experts.”
“What kind of experts were needed to build a few additional barracks and barb wired fences? Polish farmers living in the vicinity of the camp?”
Wow, I only thought Diane and Jim had a piss poor understanding of Birkenau’s history.
Auschwitz is built on a flood plain, genius. Drainage is and was an issue with the camp. Among Himmler’s many flights of fancy was expanding the camp in order to use it as an agricultural research station as well as a POW and labor camp. Hoess and the local Gauleiter protested this BECAUSE of the drainage problems. Himmler dismissed their concerns and told them to consult the experts to fix the problem. As a consequence Hoess built drainage systems around the camp to drain off the water.
Jeff wrote: “The one thing you can do stop all of this is to show, with proof, where the Jews went if the camps were transit camps and not death camps.”
“I didn’t change my mind about your requested reverse burden of proof during your short holidays. I still think I don’t have to prove the survival of people you and yours have so miserably failed to prove dead.”
Translation:
I don’t have an answer and I wish you wouldn’t bring it up.
If “revisionists” have an alternate theory about what happened to the deported Jews then it is their responsibility to prove it. If they fail to do so then their theory has no bearing and they need to stop whining that no one takes their “research” seriously. That’s how historical research works, Hermie. You can’t say, “well, the Jews didn’t die, the Germans sent them to transit camps and shipped them to the USSR” without proving your theory.
“Welcome back to the real world! ;-)”
I’m firmly planted in the real world. Only deniers live in a fantasy land.
“If you don’t like normal burdens of proof, you can still collect for posterity a few additional testimonies about Nazi gas chambers, haunted mansions, witchcraft, alien abductions or any other ‘fact’ provable with testimonial ‘evidence’…”
Translation:
Stop talking about where the Jews went!!!! We don’t know and it embarrasses us when you ask!!!!!!
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 10:07 am
Jeff you asked where did the Jews go…. why don’t you ask the millions of them that survived, there are more survivors now then there were then figure that one out.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 2, 2016 @ 11:01 am
“Jeff you asked where did the Jews go…. why don’t you ask the millions of them that survived, there are more survivors now then there were then figure that one out.”
Jim, that comment makes no sense. Sorry.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 11:07 am
Jeff wrote: “What do you mean by “lose?” ”
I mean their works (Hilberg) or testimonies (Gerstein, Eichmann) should be dropped and no longer used by academic historians and mainstream media because of that ‘mistake.’.
Jeff wrote: “They made a mistake (maybe). It happens. All agree that an engine was used to kill the prisoners.”
One could also say “Why did Eichmann and Gerstein (a mining engineer by profession) felt it necessary to mention Diesel as the source of poison gas at the AR camps while they could have just said ‘engine exhaust’ if they didn’t know what type of fuel had been allegedly used to do that?” and “Why did Hilberg finally opt for Diesel after examining so many testimonies about that?”
Jeff wrote: “I honestly don’t think it matters, Diesel or petrol. The victims are equally dead either way”
Their death is just an exterminationist postulate, not a fact proven by reliable unlike what is implied in your comment.
And no court worth this name considers that the weapon of murder is unimportant in a murder trial. Having it wrong is often enough to dismiss a witness or expert. Even if it doesn’t matter to most people, it should matter.
Jeff wrote: “and it was only Treblinka that the dispute is over. The other two camps were definitely petrol, not Diesel.”
No testimonies about Diesel gas chambers at Belzec and Sobibor? Are you sure about that?
Jeff wrote: “Lethal. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/sulfurdi.html”
Diesel fumes aren’t pure sulfur. Such data is of no use without any amount/concentration of poison and time of exposure. Basic rule of toxicology.
Do I need to bring up the only documented case of death caused (I’d rather say ‘facilitated’) by Diesel fumes again? The case of a man who was over 80 years old and suffered from heart disease when it happened, remember?
Jeff wrote: “Why is it insignificant if deniers say that it is a better execution method than using an internal combustion engine?”
Because Establishment’s storytellers always label anything detrimental to the Holohoax as insignificant or irrelevant.
Jeff wrote: “Well, David Irving said it in his book about Dresden (full disclosure, I’ve never read the book, just the snippets about the Altmarkt pyres). Isn’t good enough for you?”
No, it isn’t.
Could you a least provide a quote where Irving says ‘cremated to ash’ or something similar?
Jeff wrote: “Where are you getting 2,000,000 corpses? The COMBINED death toll for the ORC and Chelmno is around 1.5 million dead.”
From the top of my head. If you say 1.5 million, let’s go for 1.5 million. It changes nothing. Still very long periods of time.
Jeff wrote: “Are you saying the Germans couldn’t build more pyres at these camps?”
No, I’m not. I was just showing you that the Dresden pyres are of no use for the exterminationist case.
Jeff wrote: “Also, you keep forgetting (or ignoring) that for the most part the Germans were burning already naked decomposing corpses, not freshly dead clothed corpses.”
The alleged AR pyres had little to do with the Dresden pyres. Bodies ‘floating’ over flames (such as the ones of the fictional AR pyres) are a barbecue, not a pyre worth the name. Hindu pyres, the Orhdruf pyre(s) and the Dresden pyre(s) are all real pyres, with dead bodies resting on the wood itself, not ‘flying’ over it like with the AR fictional pyres. And the grids of your dear AR pyres would have been turned into ‘Sherman’s neckties’ at each cremation with large piles of bodies on them.
Jeff wrote: “Laurence Rees, Auschwitz, a New History. ”
Source for Rees’ assertion about that?
Jeff wrote: “Wow, I only thought Diane and Jim had a piss poor understanding of Birkenau’s history. Auschwitz is built on a flood plain, genius. Drainage is and was an issue with the camp. Among Himmler’s many flights of fancy was expanding the camp in order to use it as an agricultural research station as well as a POW and labor camp. Hoess and the local Gauleiter protested this BECAUSE of the drainage problems. Himmler dismissed their concerns and told them to consult the experts to fix the problem. As a consequence Hoess built drainage systems around the camp to drain off the water.”
Yes, I should have though about that. A few additional drains, what a big deal!
Cremation pits in a marsh. Ha ha. Laughable anywhere. But even more farcical in a marsh.
Jeff wrote: “I don’t have an answer and I wish you wouldn’t bring it up. If “revisionists” have an alternate theory about what happened to the deported Jews then it is their responsibility to prove it. If they fail to do so then their theory has no bearing and they need to stop whining that no one takes their “research” seriously. That’s how historical research works, Hermie. You can’t say, “well, the Jews didn’t die, the Germans sent them to transit camps and shipped them to the USSR” without proving your theory.”
Yes, I know. Gallileo Gallilei faced the very same problem. Too bad (for you) some rulers’ ability to enforce a theory on their subjects never succeeded in proving it… 😉
Jeff wrote: “I’m firmly planted in the real world. Only deniers live in a fantasy land.”
They rather live in a world of persecutions for having dared to challenge a ‘truth’ unable to stand challenges.
Jeff wrote: “Translation: Stop talking about where the Jews went!!!! We don’t know and it embarrasses us when you ask!!!!!!”
What I wrote doesn’t need translations. You know I’m righ about that and this is the reason why you feel you need to ‘translate’ (distort) my words…
Comment by hermie — May 2, 2016 @ 9:21 pm
Jeff wrote: “What do you mean by “lose?” ”
“I mean their works (Hilberg) or testimonies (Gerstein, Eichmann) should be dropped and no longer used by academic historians and mainstream media because of that ‘mistake.’.”
Wow, that’s harsh. So, I guess the next time one of my employees makes a mistake I’ll have to fire them and bring in someone new. Then spend the next year training that person. Oh, but wait, if that person makes a mistake I’ll have to fire them.
Don’t be ridiculous. By the same standards we need to cut off all of the deniers who misquote Arno Mayer. Or cut Mattagono off for only giving part of Kube report.
Jeff wrote: “They made a mistake (maybe). It happens. All agree that an engine was used to kill the prisoners.”
“One could also say “Why did Eichmann and Gerstein (a mining engineer by profession) felt it necessary to mention Diesel as the source of poison gas at the AR camps while they could have just said ‘engine exhaust’ if they didn’t know what type of fuel had been allegedly used to do that?” and “Why did Hilberg finally opt for Diesel after examining so many testimonies about that?””
Those that actually operated the engines stated they were petrol engines. Unless I missed something Eichman and Gerstein never operated the engines directly.
Jeff wrote: “I honestly don’t think it matters, Diesel or petrol. The victims are equally dead either way”
“Their death is just an exterminationist postulate, not a fact proven by reliable unlike what is implied in your comment.”
Well, until you or some other denier proves what happened to the Jews if they didn’t die I’m afraid you don’t have a leg to stand on.
“And no court worth this name considers that the weapon of murder is unimportant in a murder trial. Having it wrong is often enough to dismiss a witness or expert. Even if it doesn’t matter to most people, it should matter.”
If I shoot someone with a pistol and someone sees me do it, does it disqualify that witness if they get the type of pistol wrong? Or the caliber?
No. They saw me shoot someone with a pistol.
Jeff wrote: “and it was only Treblinka that the dispute is over. The other two camps were definitely petrol, not Diesel.”
“No testimonies about Diesel gas chambers at Belzec and Sobibor? Are you sure about that?”
Not anything current says those engines were Diesel engines.
Jeff wrote: “Lethal. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/sulfurdi.html”
“Diesel fumes aren’t pure sulfur. Such data is of no use without any amount/concentration of poison and time of exposure. Basic rule of toxicology.”
You asked if it was lethal. It is.
“Do I need to bring up the only documented case of death caused (I’d rather say ‘facilitated’) by Diesel fumes again? The case of a man who was over 80 years old and suffered from heart disease when it happened, remember?”
Well, I’ll also bring up the fact that the victims were locked in an airtight room. A lot of victims. Nothing to air out the exhaust until the door open so the concentration of toxins increases while the oxygen level decreases.
In that environment people die. Did you forget that people need to breathe?
Jeff wrote: “Why is it insignificant if deniers say that it is a better execution method than using an internal combustion engine?”
“Because Establishment’s storytellers always label anything detrimental to the Holohoax as insignificant or irrelevant.”
No, what’s irrelevant is fantasizing about the methods YOU would use to kill Jews.
Jeff wrote: “Well, David Irving said it in his book about Dresden (full disclosure, I’ve never read the book, just the snippets about the Altmarkt pyres). Isn’t good enough for you?”
“No, it isn’t.
Could you a least provide a quote where Irving says ‘cremated to ash’ or something similar?”
I have. I’ll dig it up again and post it.
Jeff wrote: “Where are you getting 2,000,000 corpses? The COMBINED death toll for the ORC and Chelmno is around 1.5 million dead.”
“From the top of my head. If you say 1.5 million, let’s go for 1.5 million. It changes nothing. Still very long periods of time.”
They didn’t have weeks, they had months.
Jeff wrote: “Are you saying the Germans couldn’t build more pyres at these camps?”
“No, I’m not. I was just showing you that the Dresden pyres are of no use for the exterminationist case.”
Oh. Well, you are wrong.
Jeff wrote: “Also, you keep forgetting (or ignoring) that for the most part the Germans were burning already naked decomposing corpses, not freshly dead clothed corpses.”
“The alleged AR pyres had little to do with the Dresden pyres. Bodies ‘floating’ over flames (such as the ones of the fictional AR pyres) are a barbecue, not a pyre worth the name. Hindu pyres, the Orhdruf pyre(s) and the Dresden pyre(s) are all real pyres, with dead bodies resting on the wood itself, not ‘flying’ over it like with the AR fictional pyres. And the grids of your dear AR pyres would have been turned into ‘Sherman’s neckties’ at each cremation with large piles of bodies on them.”
Floating? Are you trying to use that weird denier magic that somehow transported all of the Jews to the East without train schedules, assigned personnel or camps to receive them?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 6:46 am
Jeff I’m really getting a kick reading your post and I want to take you up on this one ….you actually feel that bodies that are buried in a grave can work their way up to the top ground you’ve got to be kidding me this is just something that I find hilarious. Unless these people were buried in Graves of six inches I don’t think we’re going to get that to happen. If you to believe this I really question your sanity here no doubt about it but you give me a good laugh and I can really see now why you believe in the Holocaust hoax because anybody that can believe in that theory of the bodies in the mass Graves working their way up to the top has some issues.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 6:57 am
You wrote: “I’m really getting a kick reading your post [Jeff] and I want to take you up on this one ….you actually feel that bodies that are buried in a grave can work their way up to the top ground”
Yes, it is true. Buried bodies can rise up. That is why the bodies at Dachau were buried on a hill top.
I wrote about the “mass graves” of the Jews in this blog post:
Comment by furtherglory — May 3, 2016 @ 8:21 am
FG…. I don’t actually understand what you’re trying to say here I don’t see any bofies Rising anywhere to the top unless you just joking around with us here.
As I’m trying to understand your humor you must mean being buried on the top of the hill was there rising to the top am I correct.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 8:27 am
Here’s an article on how erosion works, Jim.
http://education.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/erosion/
Holy crap I weep for the dumbing down of America.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 10:09 am
Jeff I’m still laughing at the erosion article that doesn’t apply here at all, you’re dealing with a flat surface altogether different than mountains and ridges and all those type of things.
Bodies under five or six feet of ground do not work their way up to the top I have never seen that happen if that was the case then all the graveyards would have all their caskets on top of the ground when you go visit.
Keep wishing….
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 10:27 am
Let’s try this again, Jim.
If bone fragments, skeletons or bones are buried fairly close to the surface, the natural erosion process will gradually strip away the top soil exposing anything underneath. Flooding speeds this process up. So, let’s say I have something buried 2 feet below the surface. Depending on the soil type, rain fall, whatever, it may take years but eventually enough top soil will strip away so that this item will be exposed.
If the Germans burned corpses and then filled up the burial sites with ash, bone, bone fragments and even large skeletal remains, eventually erosion will strip away the ash and top soil to expose these remains. Dug up soil is looser so it washes away quicker. Ash is also loose so anything buried in it will be exposed quicker.
That’s how things are exposed, Jim. This is why people find bone fragments there, especially after it rains.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 10:41 am
http://s27.photobucket.com/user/cortagravatas/media/Treblinka/GzwT_3_1.jpg.html
Here’s an interesting picture Jim.
Polish peasants digging for “Jew gold” at Treblinka found human remains.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 10:48 am
More information about erosion and weathering, Jim.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/landslide2.htm
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 10:12 am
Jeff to earth….flat surfaces don’t give up bodies especially 5 feet under…..
Show where this happened….you can’t be serious.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 10:57 am
1st, where are you getting the whole “five feet” thing?
2nd, even flat surfaces ERODE, Jim. Water, wind, all contribute to erosion. Water flowing over a flat plain washes away ground soil.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 11:26 am
Jeff you’re killing me now you’re admitting that this place was all under the water at one time was that ten twenty thirty thousand years ago.
I have never ever seen a flat surface Heroes Alesso was in the desert particular several feet down.
I always thought the Holohuxsters defied the laws of nature by what they believe already believe about the Holohoax, now their defiling nature on their own terms with weather phenomena.
Like I always ask you Jeff because you never ever offer any proof of whatever you say please show me a picture where this happened.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 11:59 am
“Jeff you’re killing me now you’re admitting that this place was all under the water at one time was that ten twenty thirty thousand years ago.”
Jim, it RAINS in Poland. Rain washes over the ground, eroding the top soil and carrying it along to creeks, streams and rivers.
“I have never ever seen a flat surface Heroes Alesso was in the desert particular several feet down.”
I have no idea what that means.
“I always thought the Holohuxsters defied the laws of nature by what they believe already believe about the Holohoax, now their defiling nature on their own terms with weather phenomena.”
So, you are denying that it rains in Poland?
“Like I always ask you Jeff because you never ever offer any proof of whatever you say please show me a picture where this happened.”
Do I need to show you a picture of it raining in Poland?
Or, do I need to show you a picture of rain? Do you need to see a picture of water?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 6:47 pm
Jeff wrote: “Wow, I only thought Diane and Jim had a piss poor understanding of Birkenau’s history. Auschwitz is built on a flood plain, genius. Drainage is and was an issue with the camp. Among Himmler’s many flights of fancy was expanding the camp in order to use it as an agricultural research station as well as a POW and labor camp. Hoess and the local Gauleiter protested this BECAUSE of the drainage problems. Himmler dismissed their concerns and told them to consult the experts to fix the problem. As a consequence Hoess built drainage systems around the camp to drain off the water.”
“Yes, I should have though about that. A few additional drains, what a big deal!”
Oops, you made a mistake. I guess nothing you write anymore has any value.
Actually it is a huge deal. Flooding can damage valuable buildings, spread disease, ruin food supplies, etc.
You didn’t know that?
“Cremation pits in a marsh. Ha ha. Laughable anywhere. But even more farcical in a marsh.”
That’s what drainage systems are for. Also, the Germans used the pits in the Summer when the water table is naturally lower.
Jeff wrote: “I don’t have an answer and I wish you wouldn’t bring it up. If “revisionists” have an alternate theory about what happened to the deported Jews then it is their responsibility to prove it. If they fail to do so then their theory has no bearing and they need to stop whining that no one takes their “research” seriously. That’s how historical research works, Hermie. You can’t say, “well, the Jews didn’t die, the Germans sent them to transit camps and shipped them to the USSR” without proving your theory.”
“Yes, I know. Gallileo Gallilei faced the very same problem. Too bad (for you) some rulers’ ability to enforce a theory on their subjects never succeeded in proving it… ;-)”
Galliei? WTF?
Oops, you made another mistake. Nothing you write after this has any value.
Jeff wrote: “I’m firmly planted in the real world. Only deniers live in a fantasy land.”
“They rather live in a world of persecutions for having dared to challenge a ‘truth’ unable to stand challenges.”
No, they are prosecuted for violating the law.
Jeff wrote: “Translation: Stop talking about where the Jews went!!!! We don’t know and it embarrasses us when you ask!!!!!!”
“What I wrote doesn’t need translations. You know I’m righ about that and this is the reason why you feel you need to ‘translate’ (distort) my words…”
No, you are actually wrong. You will continue to be wrong until you can prove your theory that the camps were transit camps and not death camps.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 6:59 am
You wrote about the drainage ditch at Birkenau. I wrote about this on my website and I have a photo of Jews digging the drainage ditch on this page: (scroll way down to see the photo)
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/History/Articles/Birkenau01B.html
Comment by furtherglory — May 3, 2016 @ 7:32 am
Here ya go, Hermie.
This page has Irving’s and other sources regarding the Altmarkt cremations.
It also talks about outdoor cremations as a whole.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/12/incinerating-corpses-on-grid-is-rather_18.html?m=1
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 10:05 am
Jeff I think you are losing it…. you do know it takes four to five hundred pounds of wood to cremate one body so show me all the wood that was there waiting to be thrown under these rails. What would happen to all the Ashes and how do they get rid of the ashes when the bodies were on top of it How do you keep the fire going as strong as it should, be it would have to be shut down at some point and completely and cleaned out.
I guess Logistics don’t fit into your picture of how things were done you just want to believe something happened by some miraculous event.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 10:24 am
Jeff wrote: “Oops, you made a mistake. I guess nothing you write anymore has any value.”
No mistake. A small omission at best.
Jeff wrote: “Actually it is a huge deal. Flooding can damage valuable buildings, spread disease, ruin food supplies, etc.
You didn’t know that? ”
C’mon. A few wooden barracks were not valuable buildings.
And drains are not dams. Drains don’t prevent floodings, bright lad.
Jeff wrote: “That’s what drainage systems are for. Also, the Germans used the pits in the Summer when the water table is naturally lower.”
Summer barbecues, so much fun… 😉
(I think I don’t need to post pics of Reynouard’s cremated rabbits once again, do I?)
Since cremation in pits as depicted by Holo-witnesses is physically impossible, the season didn’t matter. The charred corpses of Goebbels and his wife, both cremated in a bomb crater, demonstrated that pretty well.
Jeff wrote: “Galliei? WTF?”
Galliei? Who’s that?
If you plan not to look like a fool in the future, you’d better make no spelling mistake when trying to tease me with a spelling mistake.
Jeff wrote: “Oops, you made another mistake. Nothing you write after this has any value.”
You’re right. A wrong double “l” and a wrong weapon of mass murder are the very same thing. Nice reductio ad absurdum,Jeff. Congratulation!!
Jeff wrote: “No, they are prosecuted for violating the law. ”
Just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. They were not German citizens. They were unwanted foreigners understandably not having the same rights as real Germans. The Third Reich’s racial laws were crystal clear about that. You can now stop complaining about the treatment of those unwanted foreigners and stop calling their status ‘persecutions.’ 😉
Hilarious to see the Great White Knights of Democracy, Freedom of Speech and Human Rights always respond that revisionists ‘violate the law’ when told that the latter are victims of persecutions for a mere thought crime. Hypocrisy at its best. Lawfulness is not necessarily morality. The so-called ‘dissidents’ jailed or executed in various countries for blasphemy or political crimes and fiercely defended by Western Human Rights activists also violated the law(s) of the countries where they live. So according to your own standards about revisionists, those ‘dissidents’ are not persecuted at all. They just face a fair punishment for violating the laws of their country. It looks like we can disband all the Human Rights organization of this world. Problem solved…
Jeff wrote: “You will continue to be wrong until you can prove your theory that the camps were transit camps and not death camps.”
You’re the accuser. You’re the one having to prove those places were ‘death camps.’ You’re the one with an alternative theory. The victors of WW2 could enforce their/your theory on the Western world as easily as the Pope could enforce geocentrism on the Christian world for a while. But might and real science are unfortunately (for you) very different things. Might is not always right. It seems you’re back on the bench of the accusers having to prove their claims. Sorry… 😉
I think we can both agree that you wouldn’t try so hard to enforce your comfortable reverse burden of proof on your opponents if the ‘Holocaust’ was proven by as many reliable evidence as often claimed by Jew-owned academia and media.
Comment by hermie — May 4, 2016 @ 4:07 am
Jeff wrote: “Actually it is a huge deal. Flooding can damage valuable buildings, spread disease, ruin food supplies, etc.
You didn’t know that? ”
“C’mon. A few wooden barracks were not valuable buildings.”
More than that. You don’t want groundwater seeping into the Krema, regardless of their use.
It is a big deal if the barracks rot and you have to replace them. Standing water also breeds mosquitos and diseases.
“And drains are not dams. Drains don’t prevent floodings, bright lad.”
I am a bright lad. Flooding doesn’t just come from rivers, genius. Heavy rains also cause flooding. The river itself means that there is a high water table around the camp that you control with drainage systems or risk basements flooding. The drainage systems helped water run off from the rains otherwise you have standing water all over the camp.
Jeff wrote: “That’s what drainage systems are for. Also, the Germans used the pits in the Summer when the water table is naturally lower.”
“Summer barbecues, so much fun… ;-)”
I do enjoy a good barbecue.
“(I think I don’t need to post pics of Reynouard’s cremated rabbits once again, do I?)”
What did that poor rabbit ever do to Reynouatd?
“Since cremation in pits as depicted by Holo-witnesses is physically impossible, the season didn’t matter.”
Oh, but I proved they were physically possible. People have burned corpses in pits for a long time.
“The charred corpses of Goebbels and his wife, both cremated in a bomb crater, demonstrated that pretty well.”
You forget that after Goebbels died everyone rushed to leave the bunker to avoid capture. They didn’t stick around to do a proper job of it.
Jeff wrote: “Galliei? WTF?”
“Galliei? Who’s that?
If you plan not to look like a fool in the future, you’d better make no spelling mistake when trying to tease me with a spelling mistake.”
Sorry, your spelling was so fucked up that after I typed spellcheck changed it without me realizing it.
Jeff wrote: “Oops, you made another mistake. Nothing you write after this has any value.”
“You’re right. A wrong double “l” and a wrong weapon of mass murder are the very same thing. Nice reductio ad absurdum,Jeff. Congratulation!!”
Why, thank you. I enjoyed it and I will continue to do so in the future.
Jeff wrote: “No, they are prosecuted for violating the law. ”
“Just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. They were not German citizens. They were unwanted foreigners understandably not having the same rights as real Germans. The Third Reich’s racial laws were crystal clear about that. You can now stop complaining about the treatment of those unwanted foreigners and stop calling their status ‘persecutions.’ ;-)”
Jews were citizens until the Nazis stripped their citizenship away from them. Actually the laws were not crystal clear, there were arguments about what a “Jew” actually was until the end of the Third Reich.
Naturally you are off base. Holocaust Denial laws are about speech, they have nothing to do with citizenship.
“Hilarious to see the Great White Knights of Democracy, Freedom of Speech and Human Rights always respond that revisionists ‘violate the law’ when told that the latter are victims of persecutions for a mere thought crime.”
“Thought Crime?” That’s hysterical.
They violate the law by disseminating hate speech (at least, that is the way I see it interpreted).
If it helps I am against these laws unless the person is actively advocating violence.
“Hypocrisy at its best.”
Not all speech is protected, Hermie. Not even in the US. Even where speech is protected it only prevents government interference. Nothing protects someone from adverse reaction, it only means the government can’t arrest you.
“Lawfulness is not necessarily morality. The so-called ‘dissidents’ jailed or executed in various countries for blasphemy or political crimes and fiercely defended by Western Human Rights activists also violated the law(s) of the countries where they live. So according to your own standards about revisionists, those ‘dissidents’ are not persecuted at all. They just face a fair punishment for violating the laws of their country. It looks like we can disband all the Human Rights organization of this world. Problem solved…”
Aaaaawwww, my heart bleeds for the poor “revisionists.” I hope you’ve sent the ones in jail a muffin basket.
Let’s see:
There’s a big difference between prosecution and jail time for violating the law in Western countries and what the dissidents in Iran or the former Soviet Union went through.
Not to mention what GERMANS went through in the Nazi Concentration Camp system. I’d take the prison time in Germany today over Dachau in 1939 any day of the week.
Jeff wrote: “You will continue to be wrong until you can prove your theory that the camps were transit camps and not death camps.”
“You’re the accuser.”
I’m not accusing anyone, I’m simply stating the facts of what happened. I’m also requiring…..”revisionists”…….to uphold the same standards they scream about. They want proof, I want proof. Simple as that.
“You’re the one having to prove those places were ‘death camps.’”
Historical research proves it. The dozens of trials held after the war prove it.
“You’re the one with an alternative theory.”
No, you are. The prevailing historical record states that the Nazis committed genocide against the Jews and others. If…..”revisionist”…….say otherwise than it is their duty to PROVE IT or stop wasting people’s time.
“The victors of WW2 could enforce their/your theory on the Western world as easily as the Pope could enforce geocentrism on the Christian world for a while. But might and real science are unfortunately (for you) very different things. Might is not always right. It seems you’re back on the bench of the accusers having to prove their claims. Sorry… ;-)”
All that jibber-jabber means you have NOTHING to prove otherwise.
“I think we can both agree”
I sincerely doubt we agree on much.
“that you wouldn’t try so hard to enforce your comfortable reverse burden of proof on your opponents if the ‘Holocaust’ was proven by as many reliable evidence as often claimed by Jew-owned academia and media.”
I’m not enforcing anything. I’m having a discussion with you on a blog.
See above about the whole “reverse burden of proof.”
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 7:14 am
Jeff wrote: “Wow, that’s harsh. So, I guess the next time one of my employees makes a mistake I’ll have to fire them and bring in someone new. Then spend the next year training that person. Oh, but wait, if that person makes a mistake I’ll have to fire them.”
If your employee made a serious mistake or misconduct, you’d better do that and that’s of course what you would do.
Jeff wrote: “Those that actually operated the engines stated they were petrol engines. Unless I missed something Eichman and Gerstein never operated the engines directly.”
Gerstein quoted Globocnik giving him his alleged instructions as follows: “Your other duty will be to improve the service of our gas chambers, which function on diesel engine exhaust.”
Now we both know that Nazi ‘confessions’ (even the confessions of Nazis allegedly tasked with improving ‘the service of our gas chambers’!!), as well as testimonies in general, are mere series of words without any intrinsic probative value. 😉
Jeff wrote: “If I shoot someone with a pistol and someone sees me do it, does it disqualify that witness if they get the type of pistol wrong? Or the caliber? No. They saw me shoot someone with a pistol.”
If that witness claims he saw you kill somebody with a non-lethal pistol such as an air gun or a paintball gun, yes he should be disqualified in the minute.
Jeff wrote: “Not anything current says those engines were Diesel engines.”
So the testimonies about Nazi gas chambers killing with the fumes from a captured Soviet submarine have all been dropped too. Submarines had Diesel engines in order not to gas the men operating those vehicles. So dropping the Diesel gassing canard amounts to dropping the submarine fumes canard too.
Jeff wrote: “You asked if it was lethal. It is.”
You don’t understand the basic rules of toxicology, do you? So I’ll try to explain that as if you were 6 years old. There is hydrogen cyanide (the poison gas of Zyklon-B) in cigarette smoke, but smokers don’t die at their first cigarette because there is not enough hydrogen cyanide in cigarette smoke to kill a human being by acute toxicity. Got it now? Still believe there is enough sulfur in Diesel exhaust to kill human beings?
Jeff wrote: “Well, I’ll also bring up the fact that the victims were locked in an airtight room. A lot of victims. Nothing to air out the exhaust until the door open so the concentration of toxins increases while the oxygen level decreases. In that environment people die. Did you forget that people need to breathe?”
No, I didn’t forget that. Bruno Tesch, the co-inventor of Zyklon-B, hadn’t forgotten that either. That’s why he explained the victors’ alleged Zyklon homicidal gas chambers were useless because people packed in airtight rooms as densely as claimed would have suffocated after a quite short time anyway. Any engineer designing airtight air-raid shelters could have confirmed Mr Tesch’s words.
Jeff wrote: “They didn’t have weeks, they had months.”
Too bad I was talking about years. Already forgotten your pathetic “3 weeks, not 2 weeks” and “1.5 million, not 2 million” dodgings?
Jeff wrote: “Floating? Are you trying to use that weird denier magic that somehow transported all of the Jews to the East without train schedules, assigned personnel or camps to receive them?”
Translation: I need to joke with a single word because I fully realize that the Germans couldn’t have cremated millions of bodies to ash with the laughable barbecues exterminationists dare to call pyres.
Still enjoy translations, Jeff? 😉
And why are you not disturbed that the Germans were allegedly able to cremate 1.5 million corpses on BBQ grids without any wood at all? No delivery notes for the supply of titanic amounts of wood to the Reinhardt camps, no AR pyres…according to your own ‘argument’ about the transports of Jews to Far Eastern Europe.
In your quest for documents about the mass deportation of Jews to Far Eastern Europe, feel free to explain why the Soviets (having captured all the German archives in Eastern Europe) would have kept and provided papers destroying their own atrocity propaganda about the ‘fascist invaders’ and their alleged misdeeds. Exterminationists say there exist no documents about the transports of Jews to Belzec because a single Soviet plane bombed the railway station there in July 1944. As you can see, the obliteration/loss of an entire paper trail about such things was a breeze…
Comment by hermie — May 4, 2016 @ 5:28 am
Jeff wrote: “Those that actually operated the engines stated they were petrol engines. Unless I missed something Eichman and Gerstein never operated the engines directly.”
“Gerstein quoted Globocnik giving him his alleged instructions as follows: “Your other duty will be to improve the service of our gas chambers, which function on diesel engine exhaust.”
That’s nice.
The “gas masters” at each camp stated the engines were petrol engines. I’ll take their word.
“Now we both know that Nazi ‘confessions’ (even the confessions of Nazis allegedly tasked with improving ‘the service of our gas chambers’!!), as well as testimonies in general, are mere series of words without any intrinsic probative value. ;-)”
Yet you still decided to use it.
But then again you do enjoy using newspaper articles to prove your points even though you repeatedly tell me that all media is controlled by Jews.
Jeff wrote: “If I shoot someone with a pistol and someone sees me do it, does it disqualify that witness if they get the type of pistol wrong? Or the caliber? No. They saw me shoot someone with a pistol.”
“If that witness claims he saw you kill somebody with a non-lethal pistol such as an air gun or a paintball gun, yes he should be disqualified in the minute.”
Um, that only works if I shoot someone with an air gun or a paintball gun. If I shoot someone with an beretta and someone mistakes it for a .45 my victim is still dead and the witness is still valid.
Jeff wrote: “Not anything current says those engines were Diesel engines.”
“So the testimonies about Nazi gas chambers killing with the fumes from a captured Soviet submarine have all been dropped too. Submarines had Diesel engines in order not to gas the men operating those vehicles. So dropping the Diesel gassing canard amounts to dropping the submarine fumes canard too.”
Those that directly dealt with the engines said they were large petrol engines like tractor or tank engines. Their testimony is what counts. Bringing up anything else is irrelevant.
Jeff wrote: “You asked if it was lethal. It is.”
“You don’t understand the basic rules of toxicology, do you? So I’ll try to explain that as if you were 6 years old.”
Maybe you should explain this to Fred Leuchter. Apparently he didn’t understand how this works.
“There is hydrogen cyanide (the poison gas of Zyklon-B) in cigarette smoke, but smokers don’t die at their first cigarette because there is not enough hydrogen cyanide in cigarette smoke to kill a human being by acute toxicity. Got it now? Still believe there is enough sulfur in Diesel exhaust to kill human beings?”
That’s nice. You forgot that I also told you that diesel also contains carbon dioxide which is also fatal. You also forgot that in a locked room filled with people that the level of toxins rise as the people breath in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide. This is how people suffocate in an air tight room. Add a toxin and they die faster.
Jeff wrote: “Well, I’ll also bring up the fact that the victims were locked in an airtight room. A lot of victims. Nothing to air out the exhaust until the door open so the concentration of toxins increases while the oxygen level decreases. In that environment people die. Did you forget that people need to breathe?”
“No, I didn’t forget that. Bruno Tesch, the co-inventor of Zyklon-B, hadn’t forgotten that either. That’s why he explained the victors’ alleged Zyklon homicidal gas chambers were useless because people packed in airtight rooms as densely as claimed would have suffocated after a quite short time anyway. Any engineer designing airtight air-raid shelters could have confirmed Mr Tesch’s words.”
Thank you for confirming how people die. Why wait on people to suffocate when you can add toxins to make them die faster?
Jeff wrote: “They didn’t have weeks, they had months.”
“Too bad I was talking about years. Already forgotten your pathetic “3 weeks, not 2 weeks” and “1.5 million, not 2 million” dodgings?”
No.
They weren’t burning all of those bodies in one spot, they were burning them at multiple locations spread out of a series of months. This gave them time to experiment and figure out the right method.
Jeff wrote: “Floating? Are you trying to use that weird denier magic that somehow transported all of the Jews to the East without train schedules, assigned personnel or camps to receive them?”
“Translation: I need to joke with a single word because I fully realize that the Germans couldn’t have cremated millions of bodies to ash with the laughable barbecues exterminationists dare to call pyres.”
You used the word “floating.” The bodies lay on a series of metal grills with fires underneath.
“Still enjoy translations, Jeff? ;-)”
I do it better.
“And why are you not disturbed that the Germans were allegedly able to cremate 1.5 million corpses on BBQ grids without any wood at all? No delivery notes for the supply of titanic amounts of wood to the Reinhardt camps, no AR pyres…according to your own ‘argument’ about the transports of Jews to Far Eastern Europe.”
Poland had and has an active logging industry. The Germans had all the wood they needed.
You, on the other hand, need to show how the Germans moved 1.5 million Jews into an active war zone during one of the most active military campaigns in history.
“In your quest for documents about the mass deportation of Jews to Far Eastern Europe, feel free to explain why the Soviets (having captured all the German archives in Eastern Europe) would have kept and provided papers destroying their own atrocity propaganda about the ‘fascist invaders’ and their alleged misdeeds. Exterminationists say there exist no documents about the transports of Jews to Belzec because a single Soviet plane bombed the railway station there in July 1944. As you can see, the obliteration/loss of an entire paper trail about such things was a breeze…”
Translation:
Still don’t have anything. Stop talking about it.
Belzec was ONE camp. I actually expect to find any documents regarding mass deportations in German hands. They would have train schedules, personnel records, consultation with the military, etc.
Hey, I’d even accept eyewitness statements from guards, inmates, commanders, bystanders, soldiers, etc.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 9:51 am
Jeff wrote: “Here ya go, Hermie. This page has Irving’s and other sources regarding the Altmarkt cremations.”
Thanks for sourcing your claim…
…and for confirming mine.
David Irving wrote: “the ashes and charred bones were collected and taken to the cemeteries to be buried”
A cremation to ashes and bones for sanitary purposes is not a cremation to ashes for concealment purposes, Jeff.
What part of the words ‘charred bones’ did you fail to understand?
Do you consider the corpses in the pic below ‘successfully concealed,’ Jeff?
Soviet atrocity propoaganda show at Majdanek
If you fail to see charred bones in this picture, contact an eye specialist without delay… 😉
Comment by hermie — May 4, 2016 @ 5:46 am
“A cremation to ashes and bones for sanitary purposes is not a cremation to ashes for concealment purposes, Jeff.”
I never said that it was, Hermie.
The camps burned the bodies and then made an EFFORT to conceal what was left. They crushed bones leaving fragments.
They were not particularly successful. They left ashes, fragments, bones and even some skeletal remains. Peasants digging around for “Jew gold” unearthed a lot of it. Natural processes have unearthed more, mainly bone fragments.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 10:13 am
Some bone fragments how about a million people worth a bone fragments…now were talking!
The bone fragments that you’re talking about is not even worth discussing disgusting.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 4, 2016 @ 10:17 am
Bones found at the site, Jim.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 11:07 am
Jeff I’m sure the bones were found at this site but not a million body worth of bones….you don’t even addressed that issue but you make it look like we don’t understand that there’s some bones around from people that died in the camps we know people died in the camps but the figures you’re coming up with with your Holohuxster buddies is just not sensible.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 4, 2016 @ 11:17 am
Part of the display at Sobibor.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 11:10 am
Bone fragments.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 4, 2016 @ 11:11 am
Jeff wrote: “More than that. You don’t want groundwater seeping into the Krema, regardless of their use. It is a big deal if the barracks rot and you have to replace them. Standing water also breeds mosquitos and diseases. ”
Instead of continuing forever this uninteresting talking about drainage, may I ask for the source of the claim that Hoess objected to the camp expansion?
Jeff wrote: “What did that poor rabbit ever do to Reynouatd?”
Buying 2 dead rabbits in a supermarket is too cruel for you too? Perhaps one could ask Mr. Reynouard to perform the same experiment with dead chickens if the cremation of 2 dead rabbits hurts American feelings? And we don’t know if Mr. Reynouard did or didn’t eat the meat of those rabbits after his cremation experiment after all. Would your feelings be less hurt if you knew that Mr. Reynouard ate those rabbits afterwards?
Jeff wrote: “Oh, but I proved they were physically possible. People have burned corpses in pits for a long time.”
Not the way the Nazis supposedly did it at Auschwitz…
Jeff wrote: “You forget that after Goebbels died everyone rushed to leave the bunker to avoid capture. They didn’t stick around to do a proper job of it.”
There is always an exterminationist exit door to ‘explain’ the countless Holo-inconsistencies when the real world debunks the childish ‘Holocaust’ narrative, isn’t it?
Jeff wrote: “Sorry, your spelling was so fucked up that after I typed spellcheck changed it without me realizing it.”
Yes, A double “l” instead of a single one is so fucked up your mistake is understandable. Crazy double letters…
Jeff wrote: “Jews were citizens until the Nazis stripped their citizenship away from them.”
So the Jews were illegal foreigners according to the laws promulgated by the new German government, as stated in my previous comment. They were not persecuted, unlike what US idiots claim on and on. They were just treated accordingly to the law in force in Germany at that time.
Jeff wrote: “Actually the laws were not crystal clear, there were arguments about what a “Jew” actually was until the end of the Third Reich.”
Jurists always do that. Law guys love defining and redefining things.
Jeff wrote: “Naturally you are off base. Holocaust Denial laws are about speech, they have nothing to do with citizenship.”
I thought we were talking about facing or not facing a specific law. That was just an example.
Jeff wrote: That’s hysterical. They violate the law by disseminating hate speech (at least, that is the way I see it interpreted). If it helps I am against these laws unless the person is actively advocating violence.”
Revisionists don’t spread hate and don’t advocate violence. Calling their works ‘hate speech,’ that’s real hysteria.
Jeff wrote: “Not all speech is protected, Hermie. Not even in the US. Even where speech is protected it only prevents government interference. Nothing protects someone from adverse reaction, it only means the government can’t arrest you.”
Governments arrest revisionists, and democracies’ Human Rights activists, academia, etc. say nothing while the latter always cry rivers when dissidents are arrested by the Chinese or Iranian government. So indeed hypocrisy at its best as I said in my previous comment.
Jeff wrote: “Aaaaawwww, my heart bleeds for the poor “revisionists.” I hope you’ve sent the ones in jail a muffin basket. Let’s see: There’s a big difference between prosecution and jail time for violating the law in Western countries and what the dissidents in Iran or the former Soviet Union went through.”
You can’t compare the sentences in countries with death penalty and in countries without it. If you go there, you could compare the fate of a convicted murderer in the US (in the states still applying death penalty) and in Europe (when death penalty is nonexistent) and state as well that Europeans protect convicted murderers because they don’t put them to death like Americans do. Absurd…
Whether you like it or not, revisionists are imprisoned for a thought crime and they get jail sentences incredibly harsh for such a ‘crime.’ It’s not so rare a revisionist gets a jail sentence longer than a rapist.
Jeff wrote: “I’m not accusing anyone, I’m simply stating the facts of what happened.”
Like any accuser in this world, Jeff. But an accuser’s ‘facts’ become facts only after he/she was able to prove his/her claims. At Nuremberg, the victors of WW2 exempted themselves of having to prove their so-called ‘facts of common knowledge’ (i.e. their own war propaganda). The following mock Holo-trials and the current standard Holo-narrrative :were/are based on the BS of the ‘continuation of the war efforts of the Allied nations’ (in Robert Jackson’s own words) too many people mistakenly call a trial. See why you remain a mere accuser/prosecutor having to prove his claims now???
Jeff wrote: ” I’m also requiring…..”revisionists”…….to uphold the same standards they scream about. They want proof, I want proof. Simple as that.”
If you regard testimonies as evidence, you’re not requiring proof, you’re only making ufology-like research.
Moreover the Far Eastern European deportations thing exposed your 2-speed evidential standards. I deliberately brought testimonies about Nazi resettlement of Jews in Far Eastern Europe in order to see your reaction. As planned, your sacrosanct testimonial evidence suddenly became irrelevant and non-probative. That was a very funny sight.
Jeff wrote: “Historical research proves it. The dozens of trials held after the war prove it.”
If thousands of witch ‘trials’ failed to prove the existence of the Devil and of women having a pact with him, a handful of ‘Holo-trials’ can impress morons only. I concede that makes many, many people. But who cares about what morons believe or don’t believe after all? 😉
Jeff wrote: “No, you are. The prevailing historical record states that the Nazis committed genocide against the Jews and others. If…..”revisionist”…….say otherwise than it is their duty to PROVE IT or stop wasting people’s time.”
Prevailing historical record? What record? Testimonies? Documents incriminating only after a careful ‘decoding’ by so-called experts? Don’t make me laugh!
Would there be a story about Nazis effectively concealing their genocidal activities through various means if there was historical record proving the ‘Holocaust’? C’mon…
Jeff wrote: “All that jibber-jabber means you have NOTHING to prove otherwise.”
Jibber-jabber, is that a moron’s code word for ‘I didn’t get what you’ve just said’? Or just another dodging?
Jeff wrote: “I’m not enforcing anything. I’m having a discussion with you on a blog.”
True. You’re not enforcing anything. You’re only pretending you don’t understand why YOU are the one having to prove his claims, like any other accuser in this world…
Comment by hermie — May 4, 2016 @ 10:38 pm
“Instead of continuing forever this uninteresting talking about drainage,”
Why is it uninteresting?
Oh, that’s right, you were wrong. Ok, I’ll drop it.
“may I ask for the source of the claim that Hoess objected to the camp expansion?”
I’ll track it down for you.
Jeff wrote: “What did that poor rabbit ever do to Reynouatd?”
“Buying 2 dead rabbits in a supermarket is too cruel for you too? Perhaps one could ask Mr. Reynouard to perform the same experiment with dead chickens if the cremation of 2 dead rabbits hurts American feelings? And we don’t know if Mr. Reynouard did or didn’t eat the meat of those rabbits after his cremation experiment after all. Would your feelings be less hurt if you knew that Mr. Reynouard ate those rabbits afterwards?”
Wow, where did that come from?
You need to work on reading and comprehending humor.
Jeff wrote: “Oh, but I proved they were physically possible. People have burned corpses in pits for a long time.”
“Not the way the Nazis supposedly did it at Auschwitz…”
Pit, wood, fuel. Yep, sounds about right.
Jeff wrote: “You forget that after Goebbels died everyone rushed to leave the bunker to avoid capture. They didn’t stick around to do a proper job of it.”
“There is always an exterminationist exit door to ‘explain’ the countless Holo-inconsistencies when the real world debunks the childish ‘Holocaust’ narrative, isn’t it?”
Hermie, the deaths of Joseph and Magda Goebbels and what happened to them afterwards is an established fact, not an out.
I know it annoys you when you are wrong,
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 6:02 am
“So the Jews were illegal foreigners according to the laws promulgated by the new German government, as stated in my previous comment. They were not persecuted, unlike what US idiots claim on and on. They were just treated accordingly to the law in force in Germany at that time.”
Well, let’s see:
Stripped of their citizenship
Forced to give up their homes
Forced to give up their businesses
Random beatings by SA/SS thugs
Jews in concentration camps treated worse than regular prisoners
Synagogues destroyed during Kristilnacht, beatings, murders, rapes, mass incarcerations, forced emigration
Polish Jews forced into ghettos, fed starvation rations
Forced deportations and incarceration of innocents
Even without the Holocaust the Nazis were brutal towards the Jews.
Look, other countries did and do persecute their minorities, including the US. But your starry-eyed love fest with Hitler and National Socialism is sickening.
Jeff wrote: “Not all speech is protected, Hermie. Not even in the US. Even where speech is protected it only prevents government interference. Nothing protects someone from adverse reaction, it only means the government can’t arrest you.”
“Governments arrest revisionists,”
Because they broke the law.
“and democracies’ Human Rights activists, academia, etc. say nothing while the latter always cry rivers when dissidents are arrested by the Chinese or Iranian government. So indeed hypocrisy at its best as I said in my previous comment.”
As I’ve said, I don’t agree with these laws.
Jeff wrote: “Aaaaawwww, my heart bleeds for the poor “revisionists.” I hope you’ve sent the ones in jail a muffin basket. Let’s see: There’s a big difference between prosecution and jail time for violating the law in Western countries and what the dissidents in Iran or the former Soviet Union went through.”
“You can’t compare the sentences in countries with death penalty and in countries without it.
If you go there, you could compare the fate of a convicted murderer in the US (in the states still applying death penalty) and in Europe (when death penalty is nonexistent) and state as well that Europeans protect convicted murderers because they don’t put them to death like Americans do. Absurd…”
What does that have to do with anything we are discussing?
There is a huge difference between what “revisionist” go through in a Western prison and what a dissident goes through in Iran.
“Whether you like it or not, revisionists are imprisoned for a thought crime and they get jail sentences incredibly harsh for such a ‘crime.’ It’s not so rare a revisionist gets a jail sentence longer than a rapist.”
That’s a legal issue regarding sentencing.
Stop with whole “thought crime” crap. Your exaggeration is an emotional appeal. Cry me a river.
Jeff wrote: “I’m not accusing anyone, I’m simply stating the facts of what happened.”
“Like any accuser in this world, Jeff. But an accuser’s ‘facts’ become facts only after he/she was able to prove his/her claims. At Nuremberg, the victors of WW2 exempted themselves of having to prove their so-called ‘facts of common knowledge’ (i.e. their own war propaganda). The following mock Holo-trials and the current standard Holo-narrrative :were/are based on the BS of the ‘continuation of the war efforts of the Allied nations’ (in Robert Jackson’s own words) too many people mistakenly call a trial. See why you remain a mere accuser/prosecutor having to prove his claims now???”
No. I’m asking for “revisionists” to prove their theory. The fact that they can’t says a great deal.
Jeff wrote: ” I’m also requiring…..”revisionists”…….to uphold the same standards they scream about. They want proof, I want proof. Simple as that.”
“If you regard testimonies as evidence, you’re not requiring proof, you’re only making ufology-like research.”
More BS. I’m actually making it easier.
What, no ex-prisoners? Guards? Commanders? Soldiers released in 1955?
Nothing?
“Moreover the Far Eastern European deportations thing exposed your 2-speed evidential standards. I deliberately brought testimonies about Nazi resettlement of Jews in Far Eastern Europe in order to see your reaction. As planned, your sacrosanct testimonial evidence suddenly became irrelevant and non-probative. That was a very funny sight.”
You mean what the Soviets brought up at Nuremberg? 30,000 Jews (maybe)? Were they talking about local or foreign Jews? Refresh my memory, did they actually say “Jews?”
Or testimony regarding Hitler SAID he was doing to the Jews?
Jeff wrote: “Historical research proves it. The dozens of trials held after the war prove it.”
“If thousands of witch ‘trials’ failed to prove the existence of the Devil and of women having a pact with him, a handful of ‘Holo-trials’ can impress morons only. I concede that makes many, many people. But who cares about what morons believe or don’t believe after all?😉”
The Hermie Duck when he doesn’t have an answer!!!!! “I’m going to jabber on about witches, and irrelevant bullshit!!! ”
Jeff wrote: “No, you are. The prevailing historical record states that the Nazis committed genocide against the Jews and others. If…..”revisionist”…….say otherwise than it is their duty to PROVE IT or stop wasting people’s time.”
“Prevailing historical record? What record? Testimonies? Documents incriminating only after a careful ‘decoding’ by so-called experts? Don’t make me laugh!”
Better than anything you have. Seems to me you have nothing.
“Would there be a story about Nazis effectively concealing their genocidal activities through various means if there was historical record proving the ‘Holocaust’? C’mon…”
Then prove otherwise. Show where the Jews went after transiting through the Action Reinhard Camps. Show where the majority of the Hungarian went after Auschwitz.
Jeff wrote: “All that jibber-jabber means you have NOTHING to prove otherwise.”
“Jibber-jabber, is that a moron’s code word for ‘I didn’t get what you’ve just said’? Or just another dodging?”
Nope. Means you don’t have crap.
Jeff wrote: “I’m not enforcing anything. I’m having a discussion with you on a blog.”
“True. You’re not enforcing anything. You’re only pretending you don’t understand why YOU are the one having to prove his claims, like any other accuser in this world…”
That sounds like a dodge…..
Admit you have nothing regarding the alleged transit of the Jews to the USSR. It’ll save us some time.
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Jeff wrote: “Actually the laws were not crystal clear, there were arguments about what a “Jew” actually was until the end of the Third Reich.”
Jurists always do that. Law guys love defining and redefining things.
Jeff wrote: “Naturally you are off base. Holocaust Denial laws are about speech, they have nothing to do with citizenship.”
I thought we were talking about facing or not facing a specific law. That was just an example.
Jeff wrote: That’s hysterical. They violate the law by disseminating hate speech (at least, that is the way I see it interpreted). If it helps I am against these laws unless the person is actively advocating violence.”
Revisionists don’t spread hate and don’t advocate violence. Calling their works ‘hate speech,’ that’s real hysteria.
Jeff wrote: “Not all speech is protected, Hermie. Not even in the US. Even where speech is protected it only prevents government interference. Nothing protects someone from adverse reaction, it only means the government can’t arrest you.”
Governments arrest revisionists, and democracies’ Human Rights activists, academia, etc. say nothing while the latter always cry rivers when dissidents are arrested by the Chinese or Iranian government. So indeed hypocrisy at its best as I said in my previous comment.
Jeff wrote: “Aaaaawwww, my heart bleeds for the poor “revisionists.” I hope you’ve sent the ones in jail a muffin basket. Let’s see: There’s a big difference between prosecution and jail time for violating the law in Western countries and what the dissidents in Iran or the former Soviet Union went through.”
You can’t compare the sentences in countries with death penalty and in countries without it. If you go there, you could compare the fate of a convicted murderer in the US (in the states still applying death penalty) and in Europe (when death penalty is nonexistent) and state as well that Europeans protect convicted murderers because they don’t put them to death like Americans do. Absurd…
Whether you like it or not, revisionists are imprisoned for a thought crime and they get jail sentences incredibly harsh for such a ‘crime.’ It’s not so rare a revisionist gets a jail sentence longer than a rapist.
Jeff wrote: “I’m not accusing anyone, I’m simply stating the facts of what happened.”
Like any accuser in this world, Jeff. But an accuser’s ‘facts’ become facts only after he/she was able to prove his/her claims. At Nuremberg, the victors of WW2 exempted themselves of having to prove their so-called ‘facts of common knowledge’ (i.e. their own war propaganda). The following mock Holo-trials and the current standard Holo-narrrative :were/are based on the BS of the ‘continuation of the war efforts of the Allied nations’ (in Robert Jackson’s own words) too many people mistakenly call a trial. See why you remain a mere accuser/prosecutor having to prove his claims now???
Jeff wrote: ” I’m also requiring…..”revisionists”…….to uphold the same standards they scream about. They want proof, I want proof. Simple as that.”
If you regard testimonies as evidence, you’re not requiring proof, you’re only making ufology-like research.
Moreover the Far Eastern European deportations thing exposed your 2-speed evidential standards. I deliberately brought testimonies about Nazi resettlement of Jews in Far Eastern Europe in order to see your reaction. As planned, your sacrosanct testimonial evidence suddenly became irrelevant and non-probative. That was a very funny sight.
Jeff wrote: “Historical research proves it. The dozens of trials held after the war prove it.”
If thousands of witch ‘trials’ failed to prove the existence of the Devil and of women having a pact with him, a handful of ‘Holo-trials’ can impress morons only. I concede that makes many, many people. But who cares about what morons believe or don’t believe after all?😉
Jeff wrote: “No, you are. The prevailing historical record states that the Nazis committed genocide against the Jews and others. If…..”revisionist”…….say otherwise than it is their duty to PROVE IT or stop wasting people’s time.”
Prevailing historical record? What record? Testimonies? Documents incriminating only after a careful ‘decoding’ by so-called experts? Don’t make me laugh!
Would there be a story about Nazis effectively concealing their genocidal activities through various means if there was historical record proving the ‘Holocaust’? C’mon…
Jeff wrote: “All that jibber-jabber means you have NOTHING to prove otherwise.”
Jibber-jabber, is that a moron’s code word for ‘I didn’t get what you’ve just said’? Or just another dodging?
Jeff wrote: “I’m not enforcing anything. I’m having a discussion with you on a blog.”
True. You’re not enforcing anything. You’re only pretending you don’t understand why YOU are the one having to prove his claims, like any other accuser in this world.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 9:22 am
Jeff wrote: “That’s nice. The “gas masters” at each camp stated the engines were petrol engines. I’ll take their word.”
Mr. Sanitary Gas (Gerstein), Mr. Reinhardt Camps (Globocnik) and Mr. Final Solution (Eichmann) aren’t small guns of the Holohoax narrative, far from that. I had assumed you would be very happy to have testimonies about homicidal gassings from such big guns at your disposal. But since their words expose the gassing fraud in full light and so endanger the whole Holohoax itself, you have arbitrarily decided to dismiss their testimonies. What won’t prevent you, I’m sure, from using other parts of their words (or alleged words) in the future when needed to prove your point…
Jeff wrote: “Yet you still decided to use it.”
I used it only to show how unreliable and non-probative testimonies and ‘confessions’ are. Take a minute or two to think about it. Why would I have used testimonies about homicidal gassings (in which I don’t believe) if not to demonstrate testimonies are just BS? The operation was very successfull. With the testimonies of Gerstein, Globocnik and Eichmann, as well as the reliability of the works of Hilberg and Arad, OUT, the Holohoax has just got a major blow and now rests mainly on words told by small guns most of whom got ridiculously tiny jail sentences in return for their collaboration at postwar Holohoax mock trials. Thanks for your help, Jeff… 😉
Jeff wrote: “Um, that only works if I shoot someone with an air gun or a paintball gun.”
Diesel exhaust is the paintball gun of gases…
Jeff wrote: “If I shoot someone with an beretta and someone mistakes it for a .45 my victim is still dead and the witness is still valid.”
And if your ‘victim’ is nowhere to be found because Great Wizard Paul Blobel allegedly vaporized his/her dead body afterwards, you have no witness. You have just a lunatic guy claiming he saw you shoot a man or a woman who is probably still alive or who has perhaps never even existed. In other words, you’re cleared and freed in the minute…
Jeff wrote: “Those that directly dealt with the engines said they were large petrol engines like tractor or tank engines. Their testimony is what counts. Bringing up anything else is irrelevant.”
The words told by Eichmann, Globocnik and Gerstein, as well as the books written by Hilberg and Arad, are all irrelevant and useless. I know. And I agree on that. No need to insist. That’s an established fact now…. 😉
Jeff wrote: “That’s nice. You forgot that I also told you that diesel also contains carbon dioxide which is also fatal.”
Carbon dioxide is fatal??? You visibly don’t know the difference between carbon dioxide (quite inocuous) and carbon monoxide (very lethal). Are you the Genius who planted a bottle of CO2 (carbon dioxide) instead of a bottle of CO (carbon monoxide) at Majdanek in order to make tourists believe there are looking at a homicdal gas chamber?
Jeff wrote: “You also forgot that in a locked room filled with people that the level of toxins rise as the people breath in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.”
Good for them there is oxygen in Diesel exhaust. They’d be able to survive a little longer thanks to your unexpected oxygen supply. Cruel…
Jeff wrote: “Why wait on people to suffocate when you can add toxins to make them die faster?”
Because you would lose the time you’ve just won when ventilating the room to get rid of poison gas. Balance virtually nil. Useless.
And because you are supposedly trying to conceal your genocidal activities by all kinds of means. What crime more perfect than mass suffocations without poison gas? No delivery notes for poison gas supplies, no ‘criminal traces’ (in Pressac’s words) of any kind…nothing but dead bodies to conceal as best as possible.
Jeff wrote: “No. They weren’t burning all of those bodies in one spot, they were burning them at multiple locations spread out of a series of months. This gave them time to experiment and figure out the right method.”
So why didn’t they use their so efficient cremation method of bodies ‘flying’ over flames when needed at Dresden?
Jeff wrote: “I do it better.”
True. That because you’re an experienced fraudster.
Jeff wrote: “Poland had and has an active logging industry. The Germans had all the wood they needed.”
No delivery notes for that? Very surprising from the very meticulous Germans documenting everything…
Jeff wrote: “You, on the other hand, need to show how the Germans moved 1.5 million Jews into an active war zone during one of the most active military campaigns in history.”
Why? Because you feel that I need to prove the survival of people you’ve been unable to prove dead? RBOP…
Jeff wrote: “Belzec was ONE camp. I actually expect to find any documents regarding mass deportations in German hands. They would have train schedules, personnel records, consultation with the military, etc. ”
…all documents having fallen in Soviet hands during WW2. What? The Soviets didn’t keep and provide captured German documents debunking their own anti-German atrocity propaganda?!? What a great shock! What a huge surprise! I’m so stunned…
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 8:25 am
“Carbon dioxide is fatal??? You visibly don’t know the difference between carbon dioxide (quite inocuous) and carbon monoxide (very lethal). Are you the Genius who planted a bottle of CO2 (carbon dioxide) instead of a bottle of CO (carbon monoxide) at Majdanek in order to make tourists believe there are looking at a homicdal gas chamber?”
I sort of glanced through your comment when my eye caught this.
I think this sort of deserves its own section.
I’m finally able to write this after laughing my ass off.
Hermie, carbon dioxide is absolutely fatal at the right concentration. Carbon dioxide is the by-product of respiration….we breathe in oxygen, we expel carbon dioxide (sorry, but I thought I’d keep simple, you know, six-year-old simple).
This is why if you lock someone in an air tight room they will die. As they breathe in the available oxygen they replace it with carbon dioxide, essentially drowning in oxygen-less air. The process is reversed in plants, plants process carbon dioxide, the waste product from that is oxygen which is why plants are so important in our ecosystem.
Did you flunk basic biology? Honestly I think all the denier shit you soak in is rotting your brains.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Jeff wrote: “You also forgot that in a locked room filled with people that the level of toxins rise as the people breath in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.”
“Good for them there is oxygen in Diesel exhaust. They’d be able to survive a little longer thanks to your unexpected oxygen supply. Cruel…”
Except as they suck in the diesel fumes they are getting a healthy dose of sulphur and carbon dioxide, plus the carbon dioxide they are releasing into the room as they breathe.
Oh, wait. Carbon dioxide isn’t dangerous.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 10:49 am
I wrote about how the Jews were killed in the Holocaust on this blog post:
Comment by furtherglory — May 5, 2016 @ 10:53 am
Don’t believe me about carbon dioxide, Hermie?
http://m.inspectapedia.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Finspectapedia.com%2Fhazmat%2FCarbon_Dioxide_Hazards.php&utm_referrer=#2828
Hey, how about another idea for an experiment??????
Why don’t you you get a bunch of your denier buddies together and lock yourselves in an air tight room??? That way you can prove me wrong.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 10:54 am
Don’t believe me about the chemical composition of diesel fuel?
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/dieselexhaust/chemical.html
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 11:20 am
The way the buildings were set up they weren’t able to do what you’re saying they were able to do sure those products can kill people that not how the buildings were set up.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 5, 2016 @ 11:24 am
“Mr. Sanitary Gas (Gerstein), Mr. Reinhardt Camps (Globocnik) and Mr. Final Solution (Eichmann) aren’t small guns of the Holohoax narrative, far from that. I had assumed you would be very happy to have testimonies about homicidal gassings from such big guns at your disposal. But since their words expose the gassing fraud in full light and so endanger the whole Holohoax itself, you have arbitrarily decided to dismiss their testimonies. What won’t prevent you, I’m sure, from using other parts of their words (or alleged words) in the future when needed to prove your point…”
Where are Globocnik’s statements regarding diesel?
This is what Eichman said:
“Eichmann and Höfle went from Lublin to Belzec. Eichmann described the site; there were patches of woods, and a highway passed through it. On the right hand side of the road there was an ordinary house, where the men who worked at the camp lived. A captain of the regular police (Ordnungspolizei) welcomed them. This was Christian Wirth. A few workmen were still there. Wirth took off his jacket, and rolling up his sleeves, joined in the work. Two or three small wooden shacks resembling two or three room cottages were being erected. Höfle told Wirth to explain the installation to Eichmann, which he did. Wirth told Eichmann that he had made everything airtight. It seemed that they were going to connect a Russian submarine engine to the buildings and pipe the exhaust fumes into them, gassing the Jews inside. Eichmann told Less that he was “horrified” by this prospect.”
Sounds like the site was still under construction. Eichman doesn’t mention actually seeing an engine of any type, diesel or otherwise.
This is what Gerstein says:
Globocnik speaking:
“Your other and far more important task is the changeover of our gas chambers which actually work with diesel exhaust fumes into a better and quicker system. I think especially of prussic acid. The day before yesterday the Führer and Himmler were here. On their order I have to personally take you there, I am not to issue written certificates and admittance cards to anybody!”
Then Pfannenstiel asked: “What did the Führer say?” Glob.: “Quicker, carry out the whole action quicker.” Pfannenstiel’s attendant, Ministerialrat Dr. Herbert Lindner, then asked: “Mr. Globocnik, do you think it is good and proper to bury all the corpses instead of cremating them? A generation could come after us which doesn’t understand all this!”
Then Globocnik said: “Gentlemen, if ever a generation will come after us which is so weak and soft-hearted that it doesn’t understand our task, then indeed the whole of National Socialism has been in vain. To the contrary, in my opinion one should bury bronze plates on which it is recorded that we have had the courage to carry out this great and so necessary work.”
The Führer: “Good, Globocnik, this is indeed also my opinion!” Later the alternative option was accepted. Then the corpses were cremated on large roasts, improvised from rails, with the aid of petrol and diesel oil.”
Sounds like heresay. Does anyone believe that Hitler actually visited these camps?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 2:53 pm
I wrote about Gerstein on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/kurt-gerstein-and-heinrich-himmler-both-allegedly-committed-suicide/
and about Globocnik on this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/odilo-globocnik/
Comment by furtherglory — May 5, 2016 @ 3:54 pm
Jeff wrote: “I never said that it was, Hermie.”
So why did you use the actual Dresden pyres in order to try to prove the fictional AR pyres did exist? Your attempt amounts to claiming the Wright Brothers’ plane proves moon landings are possible…
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 8:35 am
You wrote: “the actual Dresden pyres”
One of my very first blog posts was about the bombing of Dresden:
Comment by furtherglory — May 5, 2016 @ 8:41 am
“So why did you use the actual Dresden pyres in order to try to prove the fictional AR pyres did exist? Your attempt amounts to claiming the Wright Brothers’ plane proves moon landings are possible…”
Deniers say that pyres wouldn’t work at the AR camps, yet the Germans used them in Dresden.
The AR camp personnel did attempt to crush the remaining bones that didn’t burn, they were not always successful. The Poles and Soviets found skeletal remains, bones, fragments and ash at each location, just like the Dresden victims. I’ve posted those reports repeatedly.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 2:26 pm
Jeff wrote: “Why is it uninteresting? Oh, that’s right, you were wrong. Ok, I’ll drop it.”
Do you want us to talk about drainage for hours? I don’t find this topic interesting. But we can talk about drainage nevertheless if you find it interesting.
Jeff wrote: “Wow, where did that come from? You need to work on reading and comprehending humor.”
You’d better add a smiley or two when joking. Irony is not always easy to detect in writing.
I had thought that maybe Americans don’t eat rabbit meat and so find that European habit shocking. I know that English people are pretty shocked by the peoples eating horse meat. I had assumed a similar thing was maybe true with rabbit meat and Americans.
Jeff wrote: “Pit, wood, fuel. Yep, sounds about right.”
The Sound of BS. A movie much better than The Sound of Music.
Wood is enough if one is not dumb enough to try to do it in pits rather than on the ground. Just like Hindus do. And like Germans did too during WW2 (at Dresden, Orhdruf, etc.).
Double effort. Double blunder. A first effort to dig a large hole and then another effort to try to make that moronic crematory device work. Personally, I’d rather have just built Hindu-style pyres on the ground. But if some Jewish witnesses claim the Nazis rather opted for the ineffective moronic way, that must be true… 😉
Jeff wrote: “Hermie, the deaths of Joseph and Magda Goebbels and what happened to them afterwards is an established fact, not an out. I know it annoys you when you are wrong,”
How was I wrong when I said that the charred bodies of Joseph and Magda Goebbels showed how ineffective cremation in pits is?
Don’t you find it ironic that the dead body of Goebbels debunked the Auschwitz cremation pits fraud? Don’t like irony, Jeff?
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 9:01 am
You wrote: “I had thought that maybe Americans don’t eat rabbit meat and so find that European habit shocking.”
I don’t think that Americans eat rabbit meat now, but we did during the depression, when people were starving and destitute. In the town where I lived, men would come to the kitchen door with rabbits or fish from the nearby river and sell it to us. My mother knew how to gut a fish and how to skin a rabbit. This was during the time that the Jews were complaining about being taken from their rich lifestyle and thrown into camps.
Comment by furtherglory — May 5, 2016 @ 9:13 am
furtherglory: “I don’t think that Americans eat rabbit meat now, but we did during the depression, when people were starving and destitute.”
Did you like it, FG? And if you did, did you keep eating rabbit meat after the war? I ate rabbit meat this week. Delicious…
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 6:12 pm
Jeff wrote: “Deniers say that pyres wouldn’t work at the AR camps, yet the Germans used them in Dresden.”
If you think the Dresden pyres and the AR pyres were the same, don’t use any grill at your next barbecue and put your meat directly over the wood fire. Yum yum. Would you like ketchup with your ashes, sir? Bon appétit… 😉
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 6:28 pm
You wrote: “Hoess didn’t think Carbon Monoxide was an efficient way to kill people. Hence the use of ZB.”
From every thing that I have read about Hoess, he seems to have been a nice guy, who wouldn’t hurt anyone. His daughter, who now lives in the USA, under an assumed name, continues to defend him.
I have a section about Hoess on my website at
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/History/Articles/RudolfHoess.html
I have also blogged about Hoess several time, including this blog post:
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 6:32 am
In spite of the fact that “Game of Thrones” was on TV last night, there was a new record set for the number of people reading my blog — over 2000 people. What is WRONG with people?
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 6:49 am
“From every thing that I have read about Hoess, he seems to have been a nice guy, who wouldn’t hurt anyone. His daughter, who now lives in the USA, under an assumed name, continues to defend him.”
He sounds like a real peach……for a convicted murderer, adulterer and for someone who started their career as a concentration camp guard.
Seems like a swell guy.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 7:16 am
OK, let’s nip this one at the bud …
Zyklon B is one of the LEAST efficient ways to kill people. Just like BOMBING and TENTING A HOUSE for bug spray would be. Would take you maybe a week of living in it 24/7 to succumb to it. Again, it plays with the age old mantra I’ve been forced to trot out each time this ridiculous notion of the National Socialists gassing anyone or extermination. If that was THEIR intent, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE spent the much-needed finances and resources to haul jews, ad nauseum, to Eastern Poland (especially) during a 2-front war. First of all, the jews weren’t worth such an expense. They wanted them out of the Reich, out of ‘harms’ way’ to the Reich. The National Socialists were a dictatorship and couldn’t give a flying rat’s ass what the world thought of them one way or another, any more than the Soviets did (in this setting, if this is what it was all about). The Cheka went from house to house, town to town, village to village and executed any and everyone they wished. Had the NS wanted to exterminate the jews, being efficient, THIS is what they would have done as well. There are more efficient means of execution and disposal also that wouldn’t have required the massive trek and expenditures. One more thing. SINCE THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS WERE 50 YEARS AHEAD OF EVERYONE ELSE, DON’T YOU THINK THEY COULD HAVE AND WOULD HAVE COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY? (Again) SHEESH@! Jeff and the others overwhelmed by (wait for it)….. (drum roll please) ….
HOLOCOSTOMANIA: Subscribing to the politically correct view of the holocost without question or discussion – rots the brain, corrupts the morals and creates a psychopath. The only cure is the truth provided by those who oppose and contend against the wholesale force feeding and consequent perversion of the myth of the holocost. (Diane King)
Comment by Diane King — May 3, 2016 @ 11:31 am
“OK, let’s nip this one at the bud …”
Ok, let’s do that.
“Zyklon B is one of the LEAST efficient ways to kill people. Just like BOMBING and TENTING A HOUSE for bug spray would be. Would take you maybe a week of living in it 24/7 to succumb to it.”
Diane, the killing agent in Zyclon B is cyanide. It actually takes less cyanide to kill humans than it does insects because of our higher metabolism and advanced respiratory systems. 300 ppm is fatal to humans and the higher the concentration the quicker it kills.
“Again, it plays with the age old mantra I’ve been forced to trot out each time this ridiculous notion of the National Socialists gassing anyone or extermination. If that was THEIR intent, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE spent the much-needed finances and resources to haul jews, ad nauseum, to Eastern Poland (especially) during a 2-front war.”
They didn’t. Most of the victims were Eastern Jews from Poland, the USSR and Hungaria.
“First of all, the jews weren’t worth such an expense. They wanted them out of the Reich, out of ‘harms’ way’ to the Reich. The National Socialists were a dictatorship and couldn’t give a flying rat’s ass what the world thought of them one way or another, any more than the Soviets did (in this setting, if this is what it was all about). The Cheka went from house to house, town to town, village to village and executed any and everyone they wished. Had the NS wanted to exterminate the jews, being efficient, THIS is what they would have done as well.”
It started out that way, Diane. The Einsatsgruppen, SS Cavalry, Order Police and local collaboraters shot about 2 million Jews on the Eastern Front. Most of those victims were shot within earshot of their villages, towns and cities. The SS moved to gassing because it is easier on the killers, quieter and more secure.
I feel like I keep repeating myself. I wonder if Diane actually reads what I post.
“There are more efficient means of execution and disposal also that wouldn’t have required the massive trek and expenditures.”
See above, Diane.
“One more thing. SINCE THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS WERE 50 YEARS AHEAD OF EVERYONE ELSE, DON’T YOU THINK THEY COULD HAVE AND WOULD HAVE COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY?”
Yet the Soviets built better tanks, the British better radar and the US developed the atomic bomb.
“(Again) SHEESH@! Jeff and the others overwhelmed by (wait for it)….. (drum roll please) ….
HOLOCOSTOMANIA: Subscribing to the politically correct view of the holocost without question or discussion – rots the brain, corrupts the morals and creates a psychopath. The only cure is the truth provided by those who oppose and contend against the wholesale force feeding and consequent perversion of the myth of the holocost. (Diane King)”
I thought it was Holocaust denial that did weird things to people’s brains.
Oh, wait, read the above, courtesy of Diane King.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 11:57 am
Jeff you are do in left field with your Holojoax tales impossibilitiesand outright lies that you’re finally being beaten by a woman and you can’t take it.
Sorry to say for you she has a lot more common sense than you do, you can reason with her
You really got to go back to the drawing board on this topic you really have no clue what’s going on and you’re really been brainwashed Beyond human comprehension.
If I already believe in the Holohoax like you do after your comments I wouldn’t be a believer anymore.
You want a plum talk me out of it.
JR
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 12:07 pm
“Jeff you are do in left field with your Holojoax tales impossibilitiesand outright lies that you’re finally being beaten by a woman and you can’t take it.”
No, the only thing that’s happened is that Diane, just like you, shows a really piss poor understanding of an event she is trying to DENY.
For some reason she (and I guess you) thinks that the Germans deported six million Jews to die in the gas chambers. No serious historian or researcher ever, never, not once, said that 6 million Jews died in gas chambers. No serious historian ever said that the Germans sent six million Jews across Europe. Only people who have no clue and haven’t studied the period say that. Even “revisionists” who know anything about it ever claimed such a thing.
Read what I wrote again, Jim. Then go back to your precious “Holocaust Handbooks” and follow their timeline. Your precious “revisionists” agree with MY timeline, Jim. They are looking to debunk the events I lay out, they never state that the Germans deported six million Jews to die in gas chambers.
“Sorry to say for you she has a lot more common sense than you do, you can reason with her.”
No, she does not. Neither do you.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 12:27 pm
Jeff this the official story from Wikipedia what was that about the Six Million Jews?
The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, “whole” and kaustós, “burnt”),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, “the catastrophe”), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.[3] The victims included 1.5 million children[4] and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[5] Some definitions of the Holocaust include the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to about 11 million. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany and German-occupied territories.[6]
Enough said….
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 12:35 pm
READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 12:42 pm
Jeff I just wanted to show you that the Six Million Jews being killed figure is still being thrown around of course the Wikipedia is going to give you the typical Holohuxster view of what really happened according to you but I just want to let you understand that the majority of people out there believe it’s 6 million Jews only were killed in gas Chambers they don’t care about anybody else just Jews.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 12:46 pm
Anyone who actually takes the time to read the whole article will realize that 6 million Jews didn’t die in gas chambers, Jim. They will realize that the Germans didn’t send 6 million Jews trekking across Europe to their doom.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 1:29 pm
Jeff I know what you’re saying but this is what people believe.
Not to mention the official version has changed many times and what they claim happened.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 3, 2016 @ 2:22 pm
Jeff wrote: “I think this sort of deserves its own section. I’m finally able to write this after laughing my ass off. Hermie, carbon dioxide is absolutely fatal at the right concentration.”
Everything is fatal at the right concentration. A basic principle of toxicology is: “All things are poison and nothing is without poison; only the dose makes a thing not a poison.” In short: “The dose makes the poison;” or in Latin “Sola dosis facit venenum”. All chemicals – even water & oxygen – can be toxic if too much is absorbed. But we are of course talking about the chemicals toxic enough to be lethal at ‘sensible’ concentrations. Go out, tell a toxicologist you want to build a CO2 gas chamber for capital punishments and he’ll certainly laugh in your face.
Jeff wrote: “Carbon dioxide is the by-product of respiration….we breathe in oxygen, we expel carbon dioxide (sorry, but I thought I’d keep simple, you know, six-year-old simple). This is why if you lock someone in an air tight room they will die. As they breathe in the available oxygen they replace it with carbon dioxide, essentially drowning in oxygen-less air.”
A lack of oxygen, not an excess of carbon dioxide, will kill people locked in an air tight room.
Jeff wrote: “Did you flunk basic biology? Honestly I think all the denier shit you soak in is rotting your brains. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂”
No, I didn’t. I have a university degree in biology.
Comment by hermie — May 5, 2016 @ 7:31 pm
“Carbon dioxide is fatal??? You visibly don’t know the difference between carbon dioxide (quite inocuous) and carbon monoxide (very lethal). Are you the Genius who planted a bottle of CO2 (carbon dioxide) instead of a bottle of CO (carbon monoxide) at Majdanek in order to make tourists believe there are looking at a homicdal gas chamber?”
Your words.
I think you need a refund on your education.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 5, 2016 @ 7:47 pm
Some thoughts on Treblinka I’ve come across
Rachel Auerbach spoke pompously of
“physical evidence” and “corpora delicti.” But in fact neither the Soviets nor the Poles uncovered even the slightest scrap of proof that Treblinka II oper-
ated as an extermination camp. The Soviets, in their report of August 24, 1944 were compelled to make the following admission:
“At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one
can picture it.”
Even the investigations performed by ukaszkiewicz proved to be a complete failure in terms of this central question. He arranged excavation at a
definite spot in the camp where, according to the witness S. Rajzman, a mass grave was located, but discovered nothing of the kind. He had trenches dug, 10 to 15 m long and 1.5 m deep, at the places where, according to witnesses,
the two alleged gassing buildings had stood, yet merely encountered “undisturbed layers of earth.” To be sure, he did find skulls, but without gunshot
wounds. All the evidence he examined (coins, documents, rags, containers,remnants of various objects) show merely that there was a camp at that place, and the human remains as well as the ashes prove only that bodies were buried
or cremated in the camp. Nothing produced even a trace of evidence for mass murder, to say nothing of such a crime against several hundred thousand people.
Among the objects discovered, the skulls as well as the human body parts found in a state of decomposition deserve particular attention. From whom did they come? If we subscribe to the official historiography, this question remains unanswered. According to the official version, the cremation of the bodies exhumed from the mass graves was finished by August 2, 1943, the day of the prisoner revolt. During this revolt, at least 300 to 400 prisoners are supposed to have been killed within the camp or in the vicinity of the wire fence, and in the following three weeks, allegedly more than 30,000 Jews from the ghetto of Biaystok were gassed, whose bodies neither the Soviets nor the Poles discovered. If there were such killings, these victims therefore
must have been cremated. The same is true for the bodies of those killed in the Revolt. The surviving prisoners were not killed on the spot, rather they were transferred to Sobibór on December 20, 1943, as can be gathered from a corresponding Wehrmacht bill of lading.218 If decomposing body parts were found in November 1945, this discovery is also inconsistent with the thesis
that the victims involved had been murdered more than two years before. Finally, it is strikingly problematic that no single complete body was discovered.
From whom, therefore, did the skulls and body parts come? Were they perhaps taken from the mass graves of Treblinka I? Could these have been the
remains of victims of the typhus epidemic, which had raged in the camp at the
end of 1943? This hypothesis seems all the more plausible in that none of the
skulls exhibited gunshot wounds. It could also furnish an explanation for the
odd circumstance that Treblinka II was bombed: the bombs destroyed not only
the two buildings, which in all probability had been left intact by the Germans, but also scattered rotted body parts over a wide area and thus in-
creased the horrible effect of the ‘extermination camp’. In fact, the discovered
body parts were thoroughly exploited for propaganda.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 5, 2016 @ 7:48 pm
Jeff wrote: “I think you need a refund on your education.”
…said the ‘historian’ compiling testimonies and hearsays as if it was a reliable source of information. Ha ha ha. Hilarious.
Instead of going to college, you should have escorted bigfoot cryptozoologists, alien abduction investigators and ghost hunters. Curriculum less expensive, but the same methodology as that of Holocaust historians…
Comment by hermie — May 6, 2016 @ 6:52 am
“…said the ‘historian’ compiling testimonies and hearsays as if it was a reliable source of information. Ha ha ha. Hilarious.”
No, what’s really funny is that you actually wrote that carbon dioxide wasn’t dangerous.
“Instead of going to college, you should have escorted bigfoot cryptozoologists, alien abduction investigators and ghost hunters. Curriculum less expensive, but the same methodology as that of Holocaust historians…”
Actually I was thinking about escorting Holocaust deniers on a trip to Eastern Europe and Russia to find proof of this “camp system” they say the Jews went to. I was going to offer to help as long as they paid for everything. The camps don’t exist, except in denier imagination, but I figured it was worth a free trip. In a way it would be just like hunting for big foot.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 6:59 am
You wrote: “Actually I was thinking about escorting Holocaust deniers on a trip to Eastern Europe and Russia to find proof of this “camp system” they say the Jews went to. I was going to offer to help as long as they paid for everything. The camps don’t exist, except in denier imagination, but I figured it was worth a free trip. In a way it would be just like hunting for big foot.”
Do you actually think that “Holocaust deniers” would go on a trip, led by a Holocaust True Believer? Most trips to Holocaust sites are led by True Believers. Are you denying the existence of the camps?
Comment by furtherglory — May 6, 2016 @ 9:44 am
“Do you actually think that “Holocaust deniers” would go on a trip, led by a Holocaust True Believer?”
Am I not the “target audience,” the one they want to convince? Surely they would welcome the chance to make an apostate out of me.
“Most trips to Holocaust sites are led by True Believers. Are you denying the existence of the camps?”
The death camps and concentration camps, no, I do not deny the existence of those camps, I deny the fictional camps that deniers allege the Jews were sent to in the Soviet Union. Those are pure fiction.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 9:54 am
I think the problem with the camps and the Jews being sent to them that Jeff is having a problem with might have something to do with the numbers maybe the numbers of the Jews they say that went missing isn’t exactly those numbers…. now wouldn’t that explain that.
In other words you are thinking that X number of Jews are accountable for but what happens if x is in the number.
you’re trying to prove a figure that you really have no proof of that figure. Like most of the figures and numbers of deaths survivors excetera excetera we have to rely on the people giving us those numbers and they definitely can be wrong and when it comes to the Holohoax they are wrong in a lot of ways.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 6, 2016 @ 10:11 am
“In other words you are thinking that X number of Jews are accountable for but what happens if x is in the number.
you’re trying to prove a figure that you really have no proof of that figure. Like most of the figures and numbers of deaths survivors excetera excetera we have to rely on the people giving us those numbers and they definitely can be wrong and when it comes to the Holohoax they are wrong in a lot of ways.”
Oh, I think it is very clear, Jim.
The Hoefle Telegram and Koeher’s Report are very clear on the numbers involved. In July of 1942 Himmler ordered the emptying of the ghettos in the General Government by December 31st, 1942. Himmler repeatedly asked for trains for these deportations and we have the train schedules. At the same time Hitler launched Operation Blue, the military assault into the Southern reaches of the Soviet Union. Transportation was in short supply, not to mention a shortage of food supplies and a vicious partisan war going on at the same time.
In the Soviet Union the Wehrmacht readily utilized local Soviet citizens (including the Jews they didn’t shoot) for labor.
I’ve also provided proof that Kube ordered a halt of all Jews deported into Belorussia on July 31st, 1942.
So, Belorussia is out. The Ukraine is out. Where did the Jews go, Jim?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 10:32 am
You wrote: “The Hoefle Telegram and Koeher’s Report are very clear on the numbers involved.”
I wrote about this on this blog post:
Comment by furtherglory — May 6, 2016 @ 10:42 am
Poof….they vanished xfiles version
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 6, 2016 @ 10:44 am
“Poof….they vanished xfiles version”
Sigh.
Jim, I’m being very clear. Your narrative has to fit the conditions on the ground, plus we are talking about a very specific timetable, the Summer of 1942 until the Fall of 1943.
Deniers are the ones making the Jews vanish, not real historians. Deniers want me to believe that somehow 1.5 million Jews vanished into the Soviet Union at the height of major military offensives into the regions these Jews vanished. They also want me to believe that for some reason the Germans sent these Jews into a region wracked by famine and a vicious partisan war.
So, who sounds ridiculous now?
BTW, I like the X-Files.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 10:59 am
Jeff, it is time for you to take a trip to see some of the camps. The easiest way to start would be to go to Dachau, which is very close to the city of Munich, which has the best airport that I have ever used. You can go directly from the airport to Dachau, or you can take a train to the Dachau camp from the city of Munich. The Munich train station is huge. From there, you can take guided tours to many places. There are restaurants and stores in the train station; you can virtually live in the train station and there are also hotels only a few feet from the station.
The first thing that you should see at Dachau is the gas chamber. Be careful not to laugh, or you might get arrested. Whenever I go to visit a Holocaust site, I have to keep saying to myself “Don’t laugh, don’t laugh.”
Comment by furtherglory — May 6, 2016 @ 12:30 pm
“Jeff, it is time for you to take a trip to see some of the camps. The easiest way to start would be to go to Dachau, which is very close to the city of Munich, which has the best airport that I have ever used. You can go directly from the airport to Dachau, or you can take a train to the Dachau camp from the city of Munich. The Munich train station is huge. From there, you can take guided tours to many places. There are restaurants and stores in the train station; you can virtually live in the train station and there are also hotels only a few feet from the station.”
Naturally I want to do this but I fail to see what this has to do with the Holocaust. Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, etc. were not death camps, they were concentration camps.
Why not Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, Treblinka, Chelmno, Sobibor and Belzec?
I think Sobibor is actually the best camp to go right now, there are active archeological digs going on.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 3:42 pm
You talk about archaeological digs happening in those camps. They really are not going to show anything because nothing happened in those camps unless you they invent it like they usually do.
You really think they’re going to find something after 75 years that they haven’t found before or they could have found before.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 6, 2016 @ 4:59 pm
Did I mention I’m bored?
I am.
Jim, get your denier buddies together and get me some proof that these camps were transit camps.
Otherwise I’m really not interested.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 5:02 pm
Can’t prove a negative.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 6, 2016 @ 5:11 pm
So, in other words you have nothing, can explain nothing.
All you….or any denier, for that matter, can do is make funny of survivors.
Very noble, you “truth seekers.”
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 7:36 pm
We Holotruthers have presented plenty of information….nothing more we can do to convince you.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 6, 2016 @ 8:03 pm
You wrote: “All you….or any denier, for that matter, can do is make funny of survivors.”
I have “made funny of survivors” many times, in over 1700 blog posts, including this one:
Meanwhile, you “make funny” of revisionists, while never proving anything.
Comment by furtherglory — May 7, 2016 @ 6:03 am
“I have “made funny of survivors” many times, in over 1700 blog posts, including this one:”
Oh well, sometimes people make mistakes.
For example, for some reason Hermie didn’t realize that heavy rains cause flooding.
Jim didn’t know it rains in Poland.
You seem to think it’s the height of German efficiency to transport people west to Treblinka to transport them east into the Soviet Union(?).
I’ve posted the various reports and rebuttals to Holocaust deniers. I’m also the only person on this blog who seems to understand the timeline and conditions involved with these alleged deportations into the Soviet Union. When I’ve asked for proof I’m told that you can’t prove a negative or that deniers aren’t required to give proof. I wonder why that is.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 7, 2016 @ 6:42 am
For some unknown reason, you have decided to be a True Believer, and to make comments on a blog that is devoted to Holocaust denial. You have made comments under several different names, so it is hard to determine how many total comments you have made. Under your latest name, you have made more than twice as many comments as I have made in 5 years. To me, this indicates “Something wrong!”
Comment by furtherglory — May 7, 2016 @ 7:12 am
You wrote: “get me some proof that these camps were transit camps.”
What kind of proof do you want? The Nazis literally put up signs, saying “transit camp”. I wrote about this in many blog posts,including the two below:
Comment by furtherglory — May 7, 2016 @ 6:19 am
“What kind of proof do you want? The Nazis literally put up signs, saying “transit camp”. I wrote about this in many blog posts,including the two below:”
At the time of the mass deportations from the General Government, 1942-1943, Auschwitz didn’t have the capacity to murder the large numbers of Jews.
Where is the proof in your posts? I don’t see train schedules, communication with the Wehrmacht to coordinate the transport of massive numbers of Jews into the Soviet Union, no statements from inmates, guards or commanders, etc.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 7, 2016 @ 6:49 am
You wrote: “At the time of the mass deportations from the General Government, 1942-1943, Auschwitz didn’t have the capacity to murder the large numbers of Jews.”
I wrote about the Auschwitz gas chamber on my website at
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/Tour/Auschwitz1/Auschwitz08.html
The following quote is from the web page, cited above:
Begin quote
According to a guide book sold at the Auschwitz Museum, the gas chamber in the main camp was only used from September 1941 to March 1942 and after that, the gassing of the Jews was done in “the little red house” and “the little white house” just outside the Birkenau camp. However, Danuta Czech wrote that the last victims were members of the Sonderkommando, who were gassed in Krema I in December 1942. The ruins of “the little white house,” also known as Bunker 2, can be seen behind the Sauna building outside the Birkenau camp.
End quote
When I first started my scrapbookpages.com web site, I was not yet a Holocaust denier, so the section about the Auschwitz gas chamber is kosher.
Comment by furtherglory — May 7, 2016 @ 8:20 am
Jeff, you are making the mistake of reading only one side of the Holocaust story. There are two sides of this story, the True Believer side and the revisionist side that is against the law in 19 countries.
You should read Inconvenient History to learn the revisionist side of the story:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/index.php
Comment by furtherglory — May 6, 2016 @ 10:59 am
You wrote: ” Surely they would welcome the chance to make an apostate out of me.” Holocaust deniers go on trips to the camps to confirm their beliefs. They do not go on trips led by True Believers in order to convert one person, the leader of the trip.
Comment by furtherglory — May 6, 2016 @ 10:14 am
“You wrote: ” Surely they would welcome the chance to make an apostate out of me.” Holocaust deniers go on trips to the camps to confirm their beliefs. They do not go on trips led by True Believers in order to convert one person, the leader of the trip.”
Ah, so simply to confirm, not to learn.
So, in other words, with their minds made up they see what they want.
Yet, the open minded, like Charles Provan and Jean-Claude Pressac (I’ll remind you Faurrison sent Pressac to find evidence that there were no gas chambers), come away with the opposite impression.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 10:22 am
“Be very careful next time you drink soda or sparkling water. The bubbles are pure carbon dioxide…”
I no longer drink soda, too sugary.
Hey, prove me wrong. Consider the experiment I suggested………..
Comment by Jeff K. — May 6, 2016 @ 7:27 am
Jeff wrote: “Your words.”
Be very careful next time you drink soda or sparkling water. The bubbles are pure carbon dioxide…
Comment by hermie — May 6, 2016 @ 6:58 am
Jeff wrote: “No, what’s really funny is that you actually wrote that carbon dioxide wasn’t dangerous.”
Every chemical is dangerous if you go there. It’s possible to kill people with overdoses of water or oxygen. But nobody will categorize water and oxygen as toxic, dangerous or poisonous chemicals nevertheless.
People locked in an air tight room would suffocate from a lack of oxygen, not from an excess of carbon dioxide. And if engine exhaust was pumped into such a room, carbon dioxide wouldn’t be the chemical killing the people locked in there either. The doors would be blown out due to overpressure long before a lethal concentration of carbon dioxide could be reached. There is around 0.04% carbon dioxide in ambient air. People can die of CO2 poisoning when the concentration of CO2 reaches around 8% in ambient air. So you need to multiply the concentration of CO2 in ambient air by 200 to be able to gas people to death with CO2. Tremendous pressure in there.
Just admit you were wrong with your ridiculous CO2 suffocation/gas chambers and move on. Stop making a fool of yourself with that, Jeff.
Jeff wrote: “Actually I was thinking about escorting Holocaust deniers on a trip to Eastern Europe and Russia to find proof of this “camp system” they say the Jews went to. I was going to offer to help as long as they paid for everything. The camps don’t exist, except in denier imagination, but I figured it was worth a free trip. In a way it would be just like hunting for big foot.”
If you have time to devote to research, you’d better look for physical evidence of Nazi homicidal gas chambers and mass graves of a size related to the exterminationist claims, like any accuser of this world willing to prove his/her claims with non-childish reliable evidence. Time to grow up and drop physically-unproven Santa-Claus-style beliefs…
Even if there had been no camps in Far Eastern Europe for the expelled Jews unfit for work, anyway there were vastly enough ghettos capable of being crowded, overcrowded or very overcrowded to house very, very numerous additional Jews in that area. And I still fail to see why the special camps for people unfit for work mentioned by Soviet prosecutor Rudenko at Nuremberg would have been filled with local Slavs. Unfit for work = also unfit for sabotage and terrorist activities, so not a concern for the authorities of a country at war there. Such special camps make sense only as part of a general policy of territorial eviction such as that against the Jews of Europe.
Comment by hermie — May 7, 2016 @ 8:56 am
Oh, and Hermie, about the newspaper article:
I still find it amusing that you use newspaper articles to make your points considering you tell me that the Jews control (and controlled) the media.
I guess referring to newspaper articles only works for you and no one else.
I think the word I am searching for is….hypocrite.
Next, there’s no date on that article but it obviously predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Nazis certainly utilized deportations and emigration before the invasion of the Soviet Union but this changed following said invasion.
I’ll remind you that the Nazis also considered Madagascar as a viable option. Policies change depending on circumstances.
So, thanks for the light reading but considering it appeared before the first mass killing I’d say your use of it is pretty pathetic.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 7, 2016 @ 12:08 pm
Jeff wrote: “Next, there’s no date on that article but it obviously predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. [/quote]
It does. It was published on August 8, 1940.
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis certainly utilized deportations and emigration before the invasion of the Soviet Union but this changed following said invasion. I’ll remind you that the Nazis also considered Madagascar as a viable option. Policies change depending on circumstances.”
Evidence for that alleged change, especially for a change to a policy of full extermination through mass murder?
And why do Holohoaxsters so often use Hitler’s annihilation ‘prophecy’ of January 1939 to prove their case? According to your claim, Hitler first decided to mass murder all the Jews of Europe and said it publicly (January 1939), then he decided to expel them all after the war (between January 1939 and June 1941), and finally he decided again to mass murder them all (after June 1941). What a dumb horror tale for kids!!
Comment by hermie — May 8, 2016 @ 8:32 am
Jeff wrote: “Next, there’s no date on that article but it obviously predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. [/quote]
“It does. It was published on August 8, 1940.”
Thanks for confirming that it predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. Because that the article is worthless, it predates the first mass killings of the Jews by the Einsatsgruppen by almost a year.
Jeff wrote: “The Nazis certainly utilized deportations and emigration before the invasion of the Soviet Union but this changed following said invasion. I’ll remind you that the Nazis also considered Madagascar as a viable option. Policies change depending on circumstances.”
“Evidence for that alleged change, especially for a change to a policy of full extermination through mass murder?”
Well, Madagascar stopped being an option after the British refused to capitulate and the far Eastern solution stopped being an option when the Soviets refused to capitulate. Policies change due to circumstances.
“And why do Holohoaxsters so often use Hitler’s annihilation ‘prophecy’ of January 1939 to prove their case? According to your claim, Hitler first decided to mass murder all the Jews of Europe and said it publicly (January 1939),”
Are you denying he said it?? After all, he did say it.
“then he decided to expel them all after the war (between January 1939 and June 1941), and finally he decided again to mass murder them all (after June 1941). What a dumb horror tale for kids!!”
Are you saying Hitler couldn’t change, that his policies couldn’t shift according to circumstance? In January of 1939 the Bolshevists were the enemy, this changed when it became expedient to do so. By August of 1939 the Soviets became pseudo-allies. This changed again in December of 1940 when the Soviets refused to move in the territorial direction Hitler wanted them to.
Hitler also stated back in the early 20’s that when he came to power he would build a gallows in Munich to hang Jews on until they rotted and then replace them with fresh Jews. He said he would also do the same in Berlin in other places. You can’t say he didn’t tell everyone what he wanted to do.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 8, 2016 @ 1:56 pm
Jeff wrote: “Thanks for confirming that it predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. Because that the article is worthless, it predates the first mass killings of the Jews by the Einsatsgruppen by almost a year.”
And for confirming that various Nazi plans for the full territorial eviction of Europe’s Jewry did exist.
Note that I never said that the news article above didn’t predate the German-Soviet war.
Jeff wrote: “Well, Madagascar stopped being an option after the British refused to capitulate and the far Eastern solution stopped being an option when the Soviets refused to capitulate. Policies change due to circumstances.”
Still doesn’t prove the Nazis finally opted for a policy of full extermination through mass murder.
« Meanwhile, the war against the Soviet Union has allowed us to dispose of new territories for the final solution. Consequently, the Führer has decided to displace the Jews not towards Madagascar but towards the East. Thus, there is no longer any need to consider Madagascar for the final solution. » – [Leader of Referat D III, or Judenreferat, of Ribbentrop’s Foreign Affairs Ministry] Franz Rademacher, February 10, 1942, Nuremberg Document NG-3933.
« Even now he could say one thing to him, that at the end of the war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was the unalterable decision of the Fuehrer and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied » – Memorandum from [German] Under Secretary of State [and representative of the German Foreign Ministry at the Wannsee Conference] Martin Franz Luther, August 21, 1942, Nuremberg document NG-2586 (J).
Jeff wrote: “Are you denying he said it?? After all, he did say it.”
No, I’m not. I’m denying that Hitler was talking about mass murder when he warned about “the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe” in January 1939.
Jeff wrote: “Are you saying Hitler couldn’t change, that his policies couldn’t shift according to circumstance?”
No, I’m not.
Jeff wrote: “In January of 1939 the Bolshevists were the enemy, this changed when it became expedient to do so. By August of 1939 the Soviets became pseudo-allies. This changed again in December of 1940 when the Soviets refused to move in the territorial direction Hitler wanted them to.”
The Soviet Union was never allies or pseudo-allies of Nazi Germany. A non-aggression treaty and trade agreements are no alliance treaty. We both know who were the allies of the Soviet Union during WW2, from day1.
Jeff wrote: “Hitler also stated back in the early 20’s that when he came to power he would build a gallows in Munich to hang Jews on until they rotted and then replace them with fresh Jews. He said he would also do the same in Berlin in other places. You can’t say he didn’t tell everyone what he wanted to do.”
Alleged words reported by a dubious source.
And Himmler said in May 1940: “we reject the Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people as un-Germanic and impossible” and “the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of large-scale emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.” But Holohoaxsters never use these quotes (much more reliable than the dubious ‘quote’ you’ve just mentioned) to depict Nazi policies nevertheless. I wonder why… 😉
Comment by hermie — May 9, 2016 @ 5:36 am
Jeff wrote: “Thanks for confirming that it predates the invasion of the Soviet Union. Because that the article is worthless, it predates the first mass killings of the Jews by the Einsatsgruppen by almost a year.”
“And for confirming that various Nazi plans for the full territorial eviction of Europe’s Jewry did exist.”
I never said that they didn’t.
What I did say that policies change due to circumstances.
“Note that I never said that the news article above didn’t predate the German-Soviet war.”
That’s right, you didn’t. My point is that it has no bearing.
Jeff wrote: “Well, Madagascar stopped being an option after the British refused to capitulate and the far Eastern solution stopped being an option when the Soviets refused to capitulate. Policies change due to circumstances.”
“Still doesn’t prove the Nazis finally opted for a policy of full extermination through mass murder.”
You also never proved where the Jews were sent instead of dying at the Reinhard Camps. You or some other denier need to do this before I take you seriously.
« Meanwhile, the war against the Soviet Union has allowed us to dispose of new territories for the final solution. Consequently, the Führer has decided to displace the Jews not towards Madagascar but towards the East. Thus, there is no longer any need to consider Madagascar for the final solution. » – [Leader of Referat D III, or Judenreferat, of Ribbentrop’s Foreign Affairs Ministry] Franz Rademacher, February 10, 1942, Nuremberg Document NG-3933.
« Even now he could say one thing to him, that at the end of the war all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was the unalterable decision of the Fuehrer and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied » – Memorandum from [German] Under Secretary of State [and representative of the German Foreign Ministry at the Wannsee Conference] Martin Franz Luther, August 21, 1942, Nuremberg document NG-2586 (J).
Oh gosh golly, the above quotes are devastating.
Whatever shall I do to counter?
Click to access hans_frank_liquidation_of_jews.pdf
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-posen.htm
Comment by Jeff K. — May 9, 2016 @ 7:33 am
Jeff wrote: “In January of 1939 the Bolshevists were the enemy, this changed when it became expedient to do so. By August of 1939 the Soviets became pseudo-allies. This changed again in December of 1940 when the Soviets refused to move in the territorial direction Hitler wanted them to.”
“The Soviet Union was never allies or pseudo-allies of Nazi Germany. A non-aggression treaty and trade agreements are no alliance treaty. We both know who were the allies of the Soviet Union during WW2, from day1.”
Let’s see. The Gestapo and the NKVD exchanged information regarding Polish enemies, the Soviets allowed German naval vessels to refuel and resupply at selected ports, the Soviets assisted German bombing efforts in Poland by having their radio stations identify themselves frequently, the Soviets and Germans issued joint statements regarding peace with Britain, etc., etc.
I know it bothers you that Hitler crawled into bed with Stalin in order to prevent the Soviets with signing with the West. So much for ideology, right?
Jeff wrote: “Hitler also stated back in the early 20’s that when he came to power he would build a gallows in Munich to hang Jews on until they rotted and then replace them with fresh Jews. He said he would also do the same in Berlin in other places. You can’t say he didn’t tell everyone what he wanted to do.”
“Alleged words reported by a dubious source.”
Why? Hitler was practically a nobody in the early 20’s. Are you saying that the Jews who ran the newspapers looked into the future and saw that Hitler would someday take power?
“And Himmler said in May 1940: “we reject the Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people as un-Germanic and impossible” and “the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of large-scale emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.” But Holohoaxsters never use these quotes (much more reliable than the dubious ‘quote’ you’ve just mentioned) to depict Nazi policies nevertheless. I wonder why… ;-)”
Actually I’m perfectly aware of the quote.
Are you saying that Himmler sent the Jews to Africa???!!!!!??????
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I’m teasing you, of course.
I look at the date. It predates the first mass killings by over a year. So, again, Nazi policy changed and became more radical with the invasion of the USSR.
Also, are you forgetting Himmler’s Posen Speech?
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-posen.htm
Comment by Jeff K. — May 9, 2016 @ 7:50 am
Jeff wrote: “Let’s see. The Gestapo and the NKVD exchanged information regarding Polish enemies, the Soviets allowed German naval vessels to refuel and resupply at selected ports, the Soviets assisted German bombing efforts in Poland by having their radio stations identify themselves frequently, the Soviets and Germans issued joint statements regarding peace with Britain, etc., etc.”
Just part of Stalin’s plan for the mutual exhaustion of both sides and his future involvement on the British side. [If one side had collapsed and the war had ended before Uncle Joe could join in and ‘shoot the last bullet’ (as FDR said about America), Stalin’s plan for the final victory of global Communism would have gone to waste.] So insignificant. Nothing in comparison with FDR’s huge supplies to the Soviet Union (literally saving the Red Army from total defeat) and the long Anglo-American-Soviet joint war against Germany.
Jeff wrote: “Why? Hitler was practically a nobody in the early 20’s. Are you saying that the Jews who ran the newspapers looked into the future and saw that Hitler would someday take power?”
Those words were ‘reported’ for the 1st time when Hitler was no longer a nobody. Claiming in the late 30’s ‘Hitler told me in the 20’s he wanted to kill all the Jews’ is very easy, but it can’t stand scrutinity for a minute.
Jeff wrote: “Actually I’m perfectly aware of the quote. Are you saying that Himmler sent the Jews to Africa???!!!!!?????😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂”
Are you saying the Nazis opted for the ‘un-Germanic and impossible’ ‘Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people’?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Jeff wrote: “I’m teasing you, of course. I look at the date. It predates the first mass killings by over a year. So, again, Nazi policy changed and became more radical with the invasion of the USSR.”
Yes, you are [saying the Nazis opted for the Bolshevist un-Germanic destruction of a people].
Not a change. Half a revolution!!
Jeff wrote: “Also, are you forgetting Himmler’s Posen Speech?”
No, I’m not forgetting it. I just find the performances of Obama’s official voice impersonator more convincing than the pathetic recording of Himmler’s Posen speech. 😉
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 4:07 am
Jeff wrote: “Also, are you forgetting Himmler’s Posen Speech?”
I wrote about the famous Posen speech at least twice:
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/himmlers-posen-speech/
Comment by furtherglory — May 11, 2016 @ 6:54 am
Jeff wrote: “Let’s see. The Gestapo and the NKVD exchanged information regarding Polish enemies, the Soviets allowed German naval vessels to refuel and resupply at selected ports, the Soviets assisted German bombing efforts in Poland by having their radio stations identify themselves frequently, the Soviets and Germans issued joint statements regarding peace with Britain, etc., etc.”
“Just part of Stalin’s plan for the mutual exhaustion of both sides and his future involvement on the British side.”
I agree with the mutual exhaustion part, the other part about Britain is ridiculous.
Stalin TRIED to ally himself with Britain and France previous to the German invasion of Poland. What turned him towards Germany was the insult of being left out of the Munich Pact (the Germans, the British the Italians and the French blew off the fact that the USSR also had a treaty with Czechoslovakia) and that the British refused to take the negotiations with the USSR seriously over Poland. Stalin, smart man that he was (though a functioning sociopath) made the right decision to sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Why bleed for Poland when Poland refused to allow Red Army troops inside her borders? Why bleed for the British when they simply stalled in order to buy time?
It was the right move for Hitler as well. It freed him up to conquer Poland and then turn on the West without worrying about a Soviet attack.
“If one side had collapsed and the war had ended before Uncle Joe could join in and ‘shoot the last bullet’ (as FDR said about America), Stalin’s plan for the final victory of global Communism would have gone to waste.”
It wound up going to waste anyway. Did I miss something? Did the Communists conquer the world last night while I was asleep?
“So insignificant. Nothing in comparison with FDR’s huge supplies to the Soviet Union (literally saving the Red Army from total defeat)”
I’d hardly call it insignificant. The Soviets traded massive amounts of raw materials for German weapon systems. The Soviets also acted as middlemen for the Germans to help them procure needed materials the Soviets didn’t have. Granted, this was a normal trading partnership but both sides benefitted enormously.
I will agree (somewhat) that US supplies, especially food, helped save the USSR from collapse.
“and the long Anglo-American-Soviet joint war against Germany.”
That Germany brought on herself by attacking the Soviet Union and declaring war on the US.
Jeff wrote: “Why? Hitler was practically a nobody in the early 20’s. Are you saying that the Jews who ran the newspapers looked into the future and saw that Hitler would someday take power?”
“Those words were ‘reported’ for the 1st time when Hitler was no longer a nobody. Claiming in the late 30’s ‘Hitler told me in the 20’s he wanted to kill all the Jews’ is very easy, but it can’t stand scrutinity for a minute.”
Of course….because it doesn’t agree with how you view your sacred Hitler.
Jeff wrote: “Actually I’m perfectly aware of the quote. Are you saying that Himmler sent the Jews to Africa???!!!!!?????😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂”
“Are you saying the Nazis opted for the ‘un-Germanic and impossible’ ‘Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people’?”
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Yes, I am, when it became expedient to do so.
Jeff wrote: “I’m teasing you, of course. I look at the date. It predates the first mass killings by over a year. So, again, Nazi policy changed and became more radical with the invasion of the USSR.”
“Yes, you are [saying the Nazis opted for the Bolshevist un-Germanic destruction of a people].”
Yes, I am.
“Not a change. Half a revolution!!”
Well, the Germans ran out of time. That happens when you take on the three most industrialized nations in the world at the same time.
Jeff wrote: “Also, are you forgetting Himmler’s Posen Speech?”
“No, I’m not forgetting it. I just find the performances of Obama’s official voice impersonator more convincing than the pathetic recording of Himmler’s Posen speech. ;-)”
Denier reaction to something they don’t want to see or hear:
“Lies! Counterfeit! Forgery!”
Pathetic.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 7:01 am
Jeff wrote: “I agree with the mutual exhaustion part, the other part about Britain is ridiculous.”
Churchill, the Focus Group’s champion, had negotiated a joint war on Germany with the Soviet Union as early as April 1939. But the whole thing remained secret because Poland wouldn’t have agreed on an alliance with Britain for a war against Germany if the Poles had known that the Soviet Union was on board. And no Poland, no trigger & no excuse for a war on Germany. Britain needed the Soviet military power to win the war and the Polish troublemaker to start the war.
Jeff wrote: “I’d hardly call it insignificant. The Soviets traded massive amounts of raw materials for German weapon systems. The Soviets also acted as middlemen for the Germans to help them procure needed materials the Soviets didn’t have. Granted, this was a normal trading partnership but both sides benefitted enormously.”
No comparison with the huge amounts of weapons, ammunitions and food America sent to the Soviet Union, nor with a joint war like the US-Anglo-Soviet crusade.
Jeff wrote: “I will agree (somewhat) that US supplies, especially food, helped save the USSR from collapse.”
Yes, food, so that the United States remains a humanitarian nation rather than the war monger it was/is. Amerikike’s honor is safe. Was so close… 😉
Jeff wrote: “That Germany brought on herself by attacking the Soviet Union and declaring war on the US.”
The victors said. Not this time yet we’ll see a victor blame any war guilt on itself…
Jeff wrote: “Of course….because it doesn’t agree with how you view your sacred Hitler. ”
No. Because this is how it happened. The ‘quote’ emerged for the first time only after Hitler had become Germany’s Chancellor.
Jeff wrote: “Denier reaction to something they don’t want to see or hear: “Lies! Counterfeit! Forgery!” Pathetic.”
No. People with a brain’s reaction when facing lousy evidence. Among other lousy things, the transcript of the Posen speech had a weird pagination (repaginated parts), a Nazi on trial (Berger if memory serves me right) first failed to identify Himmler’s voice in the recording, and other Nazis who were there said Himmler didn’t talk about that topic on that day.
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 8:53 am
Jeff wrote: “I agree with the mutual exhaustion part, the other part about Britain is ridiculous.”
“Churchill, the Focus Group’s champion, had negotiated a joint war on Germany with the Soviet Union as early as April 1939. But the whole thing remained secret because Poland wouldn’t have agreed on an alliance with Britain for a war against Germany if the Poles had known that the Soviet Union was on board. And no Poland, no trigger & no excuse for a war on Germany. Britain needed the Soviet military power to win the war and the Polish troublemaker to start the war.”
Conspiraloon crap. Churchill didn’t have that power. The rest is pure loony toons.
Jeff wrote: “I’d hardly call it insignificant. The Soviets traded massive amounts of raw materials for German weapon systems. The Soviets also acted as middlemen for the Germans to help them procure needed materials the Soviets didn’t have. Granted, this was a normal trading partnership but both sides benefitted enormously.”
“No comparison with the huge amounts of weapons, ammunitions and food America sent to the Soviet Union, nor with a joint war like the US-Anglo-Soviet crusade.”
The US did send a lot of material.
Why call it a crusade? The Germans invaded the USSR, declared war on the US. Whatever the Soviets did was a defensive response to a German attack.
Jeff wrote: “I will agree (somewhat) that US supplies, especially food, helped save the USSR from collapse.”
“Yes, food, so that the United States remains a humanitarian nation rather than the war monger it was/is. Amerikike’s honor is safe. Was so close… ;-)”
The Soviets had better weapon systems, especially tanks. The Soviets didn’t like US tanks, they nicknamed them “Ronson Lighters” and a “coffin for seven brothers.” The Soviets used those tanks for training purposes but preferred their T-34 and Joseph Stalin heavy tanks. The most useful things the US provided the Soviets were food (Spam works if you are starving, I guess) and vehicles, especially trucks. The truth is the US was woefully unprepared for war, with the best weapon probably the M-1 rifle (I don’t know if any of those wound up in the USSR) and probably the best fighter of the war, the Mustang. The Germans and Soviets had better tanks and artillery. The US probably possesed better heavy bombers than the Soviets and definitely better than any heavy bomber the Germans put out.
Jeff wrote: “That Germany brought on herself by attacking the Soviet Union and declaring war on the US.”
“The victors said.”
Well, the Germans attacked the Soviet Union on June 22nd, 1941 and declared war on the US on what, December 11th, 1941? So I don’t think it’s any clearer than that.
“Not this time yet we’ll see a victor blame any war guilt on itself…”
OK.
Jeff wrote: “Of course….because it doesn’t agree with how you view your sacred Hitler. ”
“No. Because this is how it happened. The ‘quote’ emerged for the first time only after Hitler had become Germany’s Chancellor.”
No, I’m going with my first answer.
Jeff wrote: “Denier reaction to something they don’t want to see or hear: “Lies! Counterfeit! Forgery!” Pathetic.”
“No. People with a brain’s reaction when facing lousy evidence.”
No, I’m going to go with pathetic.
“Among other lousy things, the transcript of the Posen speech had a weird pagination (repaginated parts), a Nazi on trial (Berger if memory serves me right) first failed to identify Himmler’s voice in the recording, and other Nazis who were there said Himmler didn’t talk about that topic on that day.”
Snore. Just keep repeating, “it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery…..”
Well, if what you said is true, then why all the denier linguistic masturbation over the German word for “extermination?”
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 10:07 am
Jeff wrote: “Conspiraloon crap. Churchill didn’t have that power. The rest is pure loony toons.”
Is this a quote from page 1 of history textbooks at college? Or from Hasbara handbook maybe?
Jeff wrote: “The US did send a lot of material. Why call it a crusade? The Germans invaded the USSR, declared war on the US. Whatever the Soviets did was a defensive response to a German attack.”
What? The victorious Soviets didn’t call the German atack a preemptive strike?!? How surprising!! And Hitler’s so-called declaration of war on the U.S. was just a public formalization of an existing state of war. FDR had shot the first bullet long before December 1941. But as he (or rather his successor) also shot the last bullet, he was able to put his BS narrative into history books,
Jeff wrote: “The Soviets had better weapon systems, especially tanks. The Soviets didn’t like US tanks, they nicknamed them “Ronson Lighters” and a “coffin for seven brothers.” The Soviets used those tanks for training purposes but preferred their T-34 and Joseph Stalin heavy tanks. The most useful things the US provided the Soviets were food (Spam works if you are starving, I guess) and vehicles, especially trucks. The truth is the US was woefully unprepared for war, with the best weapon probably the M-1 rifle (I don’t know if any of those wound up in the USSR) and probably the best fighter of the war, the Mustang. The Germans and Soviets had better tanks and artillery. The US probably possesed better heavy bombers than the Soviets and definitely better than any heavy bomber the Germans put out.”
Such a long blah to fail to show Uncle Sam saved Uncle Joe’s ass. Sad. 😉
Jeff wrote: “No, I’m going with my first answer.”
Don’t waste your time trying to prove it. Perhaps you could at least bring a news article of the early 1920’s reporting this alleged quote. You can’t? So just a matter of faith…
Jeff wrote: “Snore. Just keep repeating, “it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery…..”
Nice argument. Exterminationists are very lucky to have you on their side… 😉
Jeff wrote: “Well, if what you said is true, then why all the denier linguistic masturbation over the German word for “extermination?””
2 possibilities with the so-called Posen speech:
1) The word ‘ausrottung’ didn’t necessarily implied mass murder at that time and the ‘Posen speech’ is useless because it doesn’t document a policy of mass murder as claimed.
2) The word ‘ausrottung’ necessarily implied mass murder at that time and the ‘Posen speech’ is useless because Hitler used that word in several public speeches dealing with the Jewish question anyway.
In both cases, the so-called Posen speech is as useful to historians as a fork to a hen.
Comment by hermie — May 11, 2016 @ 4:48 pm
Jeff wrote: “Conspiraloon crap. Churchill didn’t have that power. The rest is pure loony toons.”
Is this a quote from page 1 of history textbooks at college? Or from Hasbara handbook maybe?
Both the history book and the handbook require proof. You feel free to provide some.
Jeff wrote: “The US did send a lot of material. Why call it a crusade? The Germans invaded the USSR, declared war on the US. Whatever the Soviets did was a defensive response to a German attack.”
“What? The victorious Soviets didn’t call the German atack a preemptive strike?!? How surprising!!”
Yes, the Soviets were preparing to attack Germany.
It showed in their excellent preparation, their skilled officers and their well equipped armies.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
“And Hitler’s so-called declaration of war on the U.S. was just a public formalization of an existing state of war. FDR had shot the first bullet long before December 1941.”
So, is this another example of Hitler’s (in)famous decision making?
Took him long enough. What an intelligent decision, too, just as the US was forced to withdraw a lot of their naval forces to the Pacific to meet the Japanese threat. Oh, can’t forget that at the same time he made the brilliant decision to declare war on a country he couldn’t reach the Red Army was busy pounding the Wehrmacht into submission in front of Moscow.
Smart man, Hitler. What a paragon of Teutonic virtue.
“But as he (or rather his successor) also shot the last bullet, he was able to put his BS narrative into history books,”
Well, apparently FDR played Hitler like a fiddle and led him around on a leash like a good puppy.
You know, I used to think Hitler a smart man but thanks to you Hermie I’m starting to see the light. I never realized how easily Churchill, FDR and Stalin treated him like a first class rube, not to mention international Jewry. History owes you a debt of gratitude, Hermie. Thank you.
Jeff wrote: “The Soviets had better weapon systems, especially tanks. The Soviets didn’t like US tanks, they nicknamed them “Ronson Lighters” and a “coffin for seven brothers.” The Soviets used those tanks for training purposes but preferred their T-34 and Joseph Stalin heavy tanks. The most useful things the US provided the Soviets were food (Spam works if you are starving, I guess) and vehicles, especially trucks. The truth is the US was woefully unprepared for war, with the best weapon probably the M-1 rifle (I don’t know if any of those wound up in the USSR) and probably the best fighter of the war, the Mustang. The Germans and Soviets had better tanks and artillery. The US probably possesed better heavy bombers than the Soviets and definitely better than any heavy bomber the Germans put out.”
“Such a long blah to fail to show Uncle Sam saved Uncle Joe’s ass. Sad. ;-)”
Just one question, then.
Is anything I said wrong?
Jeff wrote: “No, I’m going with my first answer.”
“Don’t waste your time trying to prove it. Perhaps you could at least bring a news article of the early 1920’s reporting this alleged quote. You can’t? So just a matter of faith…”
Would you even believe it if I brought something to the table?
I’ll tell you what. I’ll look around and see what I can find.
Jeff wrote: “Snore. Just keep repeating, “it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery, it’s all a forgery…..”
“Nice argument. Exterminationists are very lucky to have you on their side… ;-)”
Deniers should be happy with you.
You convinced me:
Hitler was a dumb ass.
Jeff wrote: “Well, if what you said is true, then why all the denier linguistic masturbation over the German word for “extermination?””
2 possibilities with the so-called Posen speech:
“1) The word ‘ausrottung’ didn’t necessarily implied mass murder at that time and the ‘Posen speech’ is useless because it doesn’t document a policy of mass murder as claimed.”
More linguistic masturbation. At least you kept it short.
“2) The word ‘ausrottung’ necessarily implied mass murder at that time and the ‘Posen speech’ is useless because Hitler used that word in several public speeches dealing with the Jewish question anyway.”
That makes no sense. Himmler discussed mass murder but didn’t discuss mass murder?? WTF??
“In both cases, the so-called Posen speech is as useful to historians as a fork to a hen.”
So, your answer is either linguistic masturbation or Himmler talked about the mass murder of Jews but didn’t talk about the mass murder of the Jews.
I see.
Well, you shed absolutely no light on the subject. Thank you.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 11, 2016 @ 7:31 pm
Jeff wrote: “Yes, the Soviets were preparing to attack Germany. It showed in their excellent preparation, their skilled officers and their well equipped armies. ”
The Red troops were equipped and prepared for attack, not for defense. This was the cause of their defeat when Operation Barbarossa began.
Jeff wrote: “So, is this another example of Hitler’s (in)famous decision making? Took him long enough. What an intelligent decision, too, just as the US was forced to withdraw a lot of their naval forces to the Pacific to meet the Japanese threat. Oh, can’t forget that at the same time he made the brilliant decision to declare war on a country he couldn’t reach the Red Army was busy pounding the Wehrmacht into submission in front of Moscow.”
Pretty cute you believe, or pretend to believe, that Germany could have avoided war with the US and Soviet juggernauts. There was no way Hitler could have kept those countries out of WW2 or even out of Europe.
Jeff wrote: “That makes no sense. Himmler discussed mass murder but didn’t discuss mass murder?? WTF?? So, your answer is either linguistic masturbation or Himmler talked about the mass murder of Jews but didn’t talk about the mass murder of the Jews. I see.”
You think Hitler and Himmler were the same person?!? Bwa ha ha. What a moron!!
Wasted enough time with you…
Comment by hermie — May 12, 2016 @ 8:31 am
Jeff wrote: “Yes, the Soviets were preparing to attack Germany. It showed in their excellent preparation, their skilled officers and their well equipped armies. ”
“The Red troops were equipped and prepared for attack, not for defense. This was the cause of their defeat when Operation Barbarossa began.”
Oh, so that’s why they did so well against the Finns the previous year.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Seriously, an army made up of poorly equipped conscripts led by incompetents and political hacks attacking the Wehrmacht? In 1941?
That’s hysterical. Hermie, the Red Army used FLAGS to direct their tanks. Their airplanes lacked radios. So, you want me to believe that army could ATTACK the Wehrmacht in 1941, at that time at the height of its competency?
That’s funny. It actually might have worked out better for the Germans if they had LET the Red Army attack them.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Jeff wrote: “So, is this another example of Hitler’s (in)famous decision making? Took him long enough. What an intelligent decision, too, just as the US was forced to withdraw a lot of their naval forces to the Pacific to meet the Japanese threat. Oh, can’t forget that at the same time he made the brilliant decision to declare war on a country he couldn’t reach the Red Army was busy pounding the Wehrmacht into submission in front of Moscow.”
“Pretty cute you believe, or pretend to believe, that Germany could have avoided war with the US and Soviet juggernauts. There was no way Hitler could have kept those countries out of WW2 or even out of Europe.”
The Soviets didn’t want war in 1941, they weren’t prepared for it.
FDR did but he didn’t have the congressional or popular support.
No, the only thing Hitler needed to do was keep his nerve after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US needed to turn its attention to Japan and its threatened possessions in the Pacific.
Jeff wrote: “That makes no sense. Himmler discussed mass murder but didn’t discuss mass murder?? WTF?? So, your answer is either linguistic masturbation or Himmler talked about the mass murder of Jews but didn’t talk about the mass murder of the Jews. I see.”
“You think Hitler and Himmler were the same person?!? Bwa ha ha. What a moron!!”
No, dumbass. Himmler spoke about mass murder at Posen. Deniers squirm and twist but can’t gyrate themselves out of that as hard as they try.
“Wasted enough time with you…”
Aaaaawww, my heart is broken.
What’s the matter, tired of me pointing out the stupidities in you arguments?
Comment by Jeff K. — May 12, 2016 @ 9:14 am
Jeff wrote: “Oh, so that’s why they did so well against the Finns the previous year.”
What had shown them how efficient a defense line like the Stalin defense line and the Finnish defense line were against a foreign invasion. That’s probably why they dismantled their Stalin line and replaced it by the phoney Molotov defense line alone (instead of keeping the Stalin line AND building a similar defense line in Poland). But since Stalin never believed that Hitler would have dared to open a second front and that he (Stalin) could be anything but the assaulter in the coming Russo-German war, such a precaution was useless in his views.
Jeff wrote: “The Soviets didn’t want war in 1941, they weren’t prepared for it.”
The peace-loving Soviet only planning to Boshevize the world with pamphlets and movies is a nice fairy tale. Really moving.
Jeff wrote: FDR did but he didn’t have the congressional or popular support. No, the only thing Hitler needed to do was keep his nerve after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US needed to turn its attention to Japan and its threatened possessions in the Pacific.”
But several months before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR had at his disposal a forged secret map and a forged secret document ‘proving’ that Hitler was about to invade the United States from South & Central America and destroy Christianity in America. And FDR was also using the German reactions to US attacks at sea as a deceptive ‘they shot the first bullet’ casus belli. Why miss such a good pretext as that of a new Lusitania, isn’t it? And even better, why not help it to happen? One had to be a gullible child to believe FDR wasn’t very close to get congressional and popular full support for his Judeo-Masonic crusade anyway.
And the widespread allegation that Hitler formalized the current state of war between Germany and the US because of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, is laugable. Since the Japanese government hadn’t declared war on the Soviet Union 6 months earlier, Hitler of course didn’t feel compelled to declare war on America because of his alliance pact with Japan as often claimed. Ridiculous…
Jeff wrote: “No, dumbass. Himmler spoke about mass murder at Posen. Deniers squirm and twist but can’t gyrate themselves out of that as hard as they try.”
You have not yet got my argument, I see. Read my comment again and call a person smarter than yourself to explain to you what I meant. 😉
Jeff wrote: “Aaaaawww, my heart is broken. What’s the matter, tired of me pointing out the stupidities in you arguments?”
If believing this makes you happy…
No, just less fun than it used to be. It looks like we’re now only going in circles, both repeating more or less the same things on and on. Pretty boring.
Comment by hermie — May 12, 2016 @ 7:09 pm
FG writes:- “I think that the Jews were chased across this river into parts unknown”. Well, that may have been true in 1939 and 1940 when the Bug was still an international frontier between Germany and the Soviet Union, but not when Treblinka 2 was in existence as a Transit Camp. I believe the bulk of the Jews were loaded on to trains that could operate on the Russian rail track gauge and were then sent on eastwards towards Minsk and beyond.
I suggest that the camp at Treblinka 1 is the key to all this: it was already functioning as a sizeable labour camp which served a massive sand and gravel quarry. This material was needed for making the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of concrete in order to supply the German army’s vast network of defensive fortifications in the occupied Soviet Union. If this is the case, then the Russian track gauge – which ended at the nearby railhead of Malkinia Gorna was extended the few kilometres across the River Bug to Treblinka in order to allow trains to reach this quarry.
Then, later, when the Operation Rheinhardt SS personnel decided to establish a transit camp, they saw this spur line already in existence, and regarded it as an ideal location for a transit camp for the deported Jews. The German railway gauge already passed through the local village train station of Treblinka, and so they extended it the very short distance ( less than a kilometre ) to the new transit camp that they were planning. ( This means that the section of railway track between the village station at Treblinka, and Treblinka 2, had three rails, which enabled trains from both gauges to come and go quite freely ).
And that – I suspect – is the real reason why Treblinka 2 ( the alleged “death camp” ) lies in a curious location on the “wrong” side of Treblinka 1. If Treblinka 2 had been a “death camp”, then the railway spur would have been extended out in to the forest – way beyond the quarry at Treblinka 1 to ensure secrecy. But obviously the SS had no qualms about placing the camp where they did, because it was merely a harmless transit halt where the Jews could be fed, watered and fumigated before they could continue their journeys.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 8:06 am
I wrote about this in this blog post: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/was-treblinka-really-a-transit-camp/
Comment by furtherglory — May 1, 2016 @ 8:20 am
If these were transit camps, then why was there a specific order calling a halt to any further deportations to Minsk and Belorussia?
The Generalkommissar for Byelorussia
Gauleiter /G 507/42 g
To
Reichskommissar for Ostland
Gauleiter Hinrich Lohse
Riga
Secret
Re: Combating Partisans and Aktion against Jews
in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia
In all the clashes with the partisans in Byelorussia it has proved that Jewry, both in the formerly Polish, as well as in the formerly Soviet parts of the District General, is the main bearer of the partisan movement, together with the Polish resistance movement in the East and the Red Army from Moscow. In consequence, the treatment of Jewry in Byelorussia is a matter of political importance owing to the danger to the entire economy. It must therefore be solved in accordance with political considerations and not merely economic needs. Following exhaustive discussions with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the exceedingly capable Leader of the SD, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, we have liquidated about 55,000 Jews in Byelorussia in the past 10 weeks. In the area of Minsk county Jewry has been completely eliminated without any danger to the manpower requirements. In the predominantly Polish area of Lida, 16,000 Jews were liquidated, in Slonim, 8,000, etc.
Owing to encroachment by the Army Rear Zone (Command), which has already been reported, there was interference with the preparations we had made for the liquidation of the Jews in Glebokie. Without contacting me, the Army Rear Zone Command liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematic elimination had in any case been planned by us. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on July 28 and 29. Of these 6,500 were Russian Jews – mainly old men, women and children – and the rest Jews incapable of work, who were sent to Minsk in November of last year by order of the Fuehrer, mainly from Vienna, Bruenn, Bremen and Berlin.
The District of Sluzk has also been relieved of several thousand Jews. The same applies to Nowogrodek and Wilejka. Radical measures are planned for Baranowitschi and Hanzewitschi. In Baranowitschi there are still another 10,000 Jews in the city itself, of whom 9,000 will be liquidated next month.
In the city of Minsk about 2,600 Jews from Germany have remained. In addition all of the 6,000 Russian Jews and Jewesses remained alive who were employed during the Aktion by various units [of the Wehrmacht]. In future, too, Minsk will remain the largest Jewish element owing to the concentration of armament industries in the area and as the requirements of the railroad make this necessary for the time being. In all other areas the number of Jews used for work will be reduced by the SD and myself to a maximum of 800, and, if possible, 500, so that when the remaining planned Aktionen have been completed there will be 8,600 in Minsk and about 7,000 Jews in the 10 other districts, including the Jew-free Minsk District. There will then be no further danger that the partisans can still rely to any real extent on Jewry. Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration.
In addition to this unambiguous attitude towards Jewry, the SD in Byelorussia also has the onerous task of continually transferring new transports of Jews from the Reich to their destination. This causes excessive strain on the physical and spiritual capacities of the personnel of the SD, and withdraws them from duties within the area of Byelorussia itself.
I should therefore be grateful if the Reichskommissar could see his way to stopping further deportations of Jews to Minsk at least until the danger from the partisans has been finally overcome. I need 100 percent of the SD manpower against the Partisans and the Polish Resistance Movement, which together occupy the entire strength of the not overwhelmingly strong SD units.
After completion of the Aktion against the Jews in Minsk, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Strauch reported to me this night, with justified indignation, that suddenly, without instructions from the Reichsfuehrer, and without notification to the Generalkommissar, a transport of 1,000 Jews from Warsaw has arrived for the local Luftwaffe Command.
I beg the Reichskommissar (already warned by telegram) to prevent the dispatch of such transports, in his capacity as supreme authority in Ostland. The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker. Under no circumstances should the army or the Luftwaffe import Jews into an area under civil administration, either from the Government-General or from elsewhere, without the approval of the Reichskommissar, as this endangers the entire political task here and the security of the Generalbezirk. I am in full agreement with the Commander of the SD in Byelorussia that we should liquidate every transport of Jews not arranged, or announced to us, by our superior officers, to prevent further disturbances in Byelorussia.
The Generalkommissar
for Byelorussia
signed Kube
Lest you think that the above is a forgery, Talbot, noted “revisionist” scholars Graf and Mattogono actually used the above document to prove that the Germans were shipping Jews out of Poland instead of killing them.
Naturally they neglected the parts of the document that spoke of killing and the express order to stop further deportations under the threat of execution. Also, you’ll notice that nowhere in this document is there any mention of the alleged “transit camps” Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec or Chelmno.
I also want to point out that you have never provided any proof of where the Jews were sent but you’ve never denied that the Jews were sent to these camps.
You also refuse to acknowledge the famine conditions in the USSR, the partisan war or the fact that at the same time 1.5 million Jews were allegedly sent into the USSR the Germans were involved in massive military operations that precludes sending all of these Jews into an active war zone. A large percentage of these alleged “deportees” were elderly, women or children. Wouldn’t they just get in the way?
The whole transit camp theory is ridiculous.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 12:50 pm
I’ve no reason to question the authenticity of this communication, Jeff. But it all comes down to how you interpret the word “liquidate”. Does it mean the actual physical killing of these people – or does it refer to the neutralising and removal of these groups who are perceived to be a threat to the Germans.
In my eyes the jury is still out on this issue.
But what this communication makes clear, is that there were in fact large numbers of Jews who were being transported out towards Minsk from the General Government and Germany itself, and the SS and SD authorities are saying that they cannot cope with the existing Jewish problem, let alone with all these new arrivals.
I’m not surprise that Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno etc. are not mentioned, because – as temporary transit halts – they were of no significance. All that was important was the initial embarkation point; the total number of deportees; and the date – plus the arrival destination; along with its date. It was only after the war, with the necessity of creating this “genocide of the Jews” myth ( I apologise that you might bridle at the word “myth”) that these place became world famous as alleged extermination centers.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 1:55 pm
“I’ve no reason to question the authenticity of this communication, Jeff. But it all comes down to how you interpret the word “liquidate”. Does it mean the actual physical killing of these people – or does it refer to the neutralising and removal of these groups who are perceived to be a threat to the Germans.”
I’ve placed the definition of “liquidate” below, Talbot.
When it refers to people it means to eliminate them. Why not say “remove” instead of “liquidate?” That makes no sense.
In my eyes the jury is still out on this issue.
“But what this communication makes clear, is that there were in fact large numbers of Jews who were being transported out towards Minsk from the General Government and Germany itself, and the SS and SD authorities are saying that they cannot cope with the existing Jewish problem, let alone with all these new arrivals.”
1,000 Jews is not a large number, Talbot. Read it again. It speaks of the elimination of Jews and those that remain. It also halts any further transport under the threat of elimination. Also, note the date:
July 31st, 1942.
This is at the beginning, not the end of the mass transports.
“I’m not surprise that Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno etc. are not mentioned, because – as temporary transit halts – they were of no significance.”
Really? Allegedly 1.5 million Jews transited through those locations. Sounds pretty significant to me.
Also the Hoefle Telegram lists those locations BY NAME. If they were “transit camps” that document should also list them.
“All that was important was the initial embarkation point; the total number of deportees; and the date – plus the arrival destination; along with its date.”
Then you should have no trouble locating the destination points of those Jews leaving the Operation Reinhard Camps to points in the USSR.
So, besides a few Jews here and a few Jews there, where did they go?
“It was only after the war, with the necessity of creating this “genocide of the Jews” myth ( I apologise that you might bridle at the word “myth”)”
I’m a big boy, I can take it. Say what you like.
“that these place became world famous as alleged extermination centers.”
Well, it makes more sense than alleged “transit camps” that no one can figure out where the Jews went.
Let me reiterate the conditions of the Soviet Union at the time:
An artificial famine brought on by the Germans seizing all available food stocks to feed their armies and shipping whatever was left to Germany
A vicious partisan war
A continual military operation, along with a “scorched earth” policy pursued by both sides
Now, Kube ordered a halt to all deportations and at the same time mentioned the massive liquidation of the Jews in the occupied areas. Where in all all that is the evidence that the ORC were transit camps?
liq·ui·date
ˈlikwəˌdāt/
verb
verb: liquidate; 3rd person present: liquidates; past tense: liquidated; past participle: liquidated; gerund or present participle: liquidating
1.
wind up the affairs of (a company or firm) by ascertaining liabilities and apportioning assets.
synonyms: close down, wind up, put into liquidation, dissolve, disband
“the company was liquidated”
(of a company) undergo liquidation.
convert (assets) into cash.
“a plan to liquidate $10,000,000 worth of property over seven years”
synonyms: convert to cash, convert, cash in, sell off, sell up
“he liquidated his share portfolio”
pay off (a debt).
synonyms: pay off, pay, pay in full, settle, clear, discharge, square, honor
“liquidating the public debt”
2.
eliminate, typically by violent means; kill.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 2:48 pm
So the word liquidate can mean either explanation (1) or (2) – everyone is free to take their pick. And even then, words and their meanings can vary quite considerably upon translation from language to language.
But in the meantime, if all these people were liquidated in the manner that you have interpreted, would you kindly tell us the precise locations where you think the ashes or remains of these people lie buried. In addition, please feel free to inform us exactly where the alleged 850,000 human bodies lie buried at Treblinka. The poor old holocaust proponents are having a hard job here in coming up with a viable explanation. I know Caroline Sturdy-Colls picked up a handful of grit, and announced ( without any forensic examination ) that they were human ashes; and she also discovered a shark’s tooth, but other than that …..
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 3:29 pm
I have written several blog posts about Caroline Sturdy-Dolls and Treblinka https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/dr-caroline-sturdy-colls/
Comment by furtherglory — May 1, 2016 @ 3:34 pm
The biggest mystery to the Holocaust is what went on in the Reinhard camps, what happened to all the remains of these people. Most of the Holohuxsters brlieve they just all disappeared but I don’t believe it. If eight hundred fifty thousand to a million plus desths occurred there has to be some remains somewhere and I’m talking thousands not just a few hundred people here or their. Caroline Coll’s trip to Treblinka was a joke she didn’t find anything but she made it look like it was a big thing. Most of the whole a Holohuxsters are happy to go along with the program thinking that they just all disappeared but I don’t believe it if there was a 850000 to a million plus deaths that has to be some remain somewhere and I’m talking thousands not just a few hundred people here or there. Caroline Coll’s trip to was a joke she didn’t find anything but you made it look like was a big thing. Please show me the remains of millions of people anything to show that many people being killed and the bodies being buried somewhere.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 3:42 pm
Belzec:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec/bel002.html
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 4:28 pm
Treblinka:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html?m=1
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 4:32 pm
Sobibor:
Click to access Sobib%C4%82%C5%82r-Bem-Mazurek-ANG..pdf
Go to page 27, read from there.
You asked where the ashes and bones were, Talbot. The Poles investigated those sites in 1945. What I’ve provided are their results.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 4:45 pm
“So the word liquidate can mean either explanation (1) or (2) – everyone is free to take their pick. And even then, words and their meanings can vary quite considerably upon translation from language to language.”
It’s funny to see the linguistic gyrations that deniers perform in order to deny the truth.
The definition is very plain, Talbot. When it refers to people it means killing them.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 4:50 pm
The following piece comes from https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/was-treblinka-really-a-transit-camp/
Caroline Sturdy-Colls is discussing her findings at Treblinka, and she said:
“It is clear that the ash contains many bones. Bone fragments can still be seen on the surface of the ground, especially after rain.”
“Considerable evidence also exists to suggest not all of the bodies were exhumed and cremated [by the Nazis]. Photographs show bodies littering the landscape as late as the early Sixties.”
These two statements by Sturdy-Colls are either complete and utter nonsense, or else the Polish authorities have been criminally and inhumanly negligent over the last 70 years in allowing human remains to lie unburied, scattered around the surface of the former camp. There can be no other explanation than these ( except, of course, that there never were any human remains there in the first place because Treblinka was not a “death camp! ).
In addition, if there had of been human remains lying scattered around on the surface since the late-1940’s, then Jewish groups – as well as the State of Israel – would have demanded that they should be buried properly in readily identifiable plots and graves. No human being, either as an individual or as part of a family, would just sit back and allow the remains of their kith and kin to be left lying on the ground in order to be scavenged by wild animals – or indeed the human variety.
Either the Polish authorities, or Caroline Sturdy-Colls herself, and the people who put her up to this dreadful televised stunt, should be ashamed of themselves and be called publicly to account.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 9:54 pm
There is nothing in those camps that’s worth showing that’s why you don’t see any pictures. If there was a huge murder scene there with bodies don’t you think they would be using video and pictures to get this information out. Obviously there’s nothing there to see that would rattle anyone. So this whole case with Treblinka and dead bodies is just a lot of talk no action just wasting people’s time making them think that something happened there.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 2, 2016 @ 4:56 am
You wrote: “So this whole case with Treblinka and dead bodies is just a lot of talk no action just wasting people’s time making them think that something happened there.”
You are correct. The location of the Treblinka camp is a very small area, and it is almost entirely covered with monuments, so that there is not much of an area where one can dig for evidence.The whole area looks like a transit camp. There is no evidence of a killing center. About two miles from the former transit camp, there is the location of a former work camp.
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 6:02 am
You wrote: “There is nothing in those camps that’s worth showing that’s why you don’t see any pictures.”
Back then, Germany was famous for having the best cameras in the world. German soldiers were allowed to carry cameras. There are numerous photos of Auschwitz, taken by the Germans. If there was anything going on in the Treblinka camp, the men there would have photographed it.
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 6:09 am
Caroline Sturdy-Colls is discussing her findings at Treblinka, and she said:
“It is clear that the ash contains many bones. Bone fragments can still be seen on the surface of the ground, especially after rain.”
“Considerable evidence also exists to suggest not all of the bodies were exhumed and cremated [by the Nazis]. Photographs show bodies littering the landscape as late as the early Sixties.”
“These two statements by Sturdy-Colls are either complete and utter nonsense, or else the Polish authorities have been criminally and inhumanly negligent over the last 70 years in allowing human remains to lie unburied, scattered around the surface of the former camp. There can be no other explanation than these ( except, of course, that there never were any human remains there in the first place because Treblinka was not a “death camp! ).”
Sigh.
Talbot, the bone fragments are coming to the surface because they are buried, the same with the skeletons in the 60’s. Over time through erosion and other natural processes these items are finding their way to the surface. It’s the same process that causes buried rocks to rise to the surface or causes cracks in the asphalt and sidewalks. Erosion, the expansion and contraction of the surrounding rock surfaces through the heating and cooling of the earth, natural shifts, etc. all cause this. It’s no mystery.
“In addition, if there had of been human remains lying scattered around on the surface since the late-1940’s, then Jewish groups – as well as the State of Israel – would have demanded that they should be buried properly in readily identifiable plots and graves. No human being, either as an individual or as part of a family, would just sit back and allow the remains of their kith and kin to be left lying on the ground in order to be scavenged by wild animals – or indeed the human variety.”
We are now talking about bone fragments that are the size of coins. There haven’t been fresh bodies there since the end of the war.
The sites were long neglected, primarily because the Polish Communists and their Soviet handlers long downplayed the Holocaust. These killing sites were behind the Iron Curtain so largely inaccessible to foreign Jews. There were monuments but it is only since the 90’s that anyone made a concerted effort to care for the sites and turn them into memorials, much less study them first hand.
“Either the Polish authorities, or Caroline Sturdy-Colls herself, and the people who put her up to this dreadful televised stunt, should be ashamed of themselves and be called publicly to account.”
For what, examining the site? Saying what is there on the ground for all to see?
Another issue is that Jewish burial laws are very strict and permit no removal or disturbance of the mass graves. The archeological investigations of Belzec caused a huge issue with the Chief Rabbi in Warsaw, primarily because the investigators used probes to discover where the bodies were. The Rabbi thought it was inappropriate for the archeologists to stick probes through the mass graves.
Personally I wish that the Rabbi would permit extensive digging but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 11:26 am
Jeff wrote: “The Poles investigated those sites in 1945. What I’ve provided are their results.”
Those ‘Polish’ (in fact, Moscow-led Bolshevik) commissions were a total fraud. Had some Poles really wanted to exhume mass graves in the years following WW2, they would of course have exhumed mass graves full of their own fellows in order to give the latter a decent burial, NOT alleged mass graves full of Jews they didn’t care about and even hated. And one is amazed by the speed of those ‘Polish’ commissions. The Germans needed 2 full months (April & May 1943) to exhume mass graves having contained ‘only’ around 4,000 bodies at Katyn, while the ‘Polish’ commissions were seemingly able to dig out and investigate mass graves having contained hundreds of thousands of bodies with an amazing speed.
The Bolshevik narrative about the Reinhardt camps is pure sci-fi. The Soviet allegation that the Nazis tried to hide their crimes among other things by planting trees (or lupine, or any other plants) over their alleged mass graves is a mere projection of their own misdeeds. The Germans quite easily found the Soviet mass graves at Katyn because the Bolshevik geniuses had planted young pine-trees over their mass graves for concealment purposes.
Comment by hermie — May 2, 2016 @ 7:30 am
“Those ‘Polish’ (in fact, Moscow-led Bolshevik) commissions were a total fraud. Had some Poles really wanted to exhume mass graves in the years following WW2, they would of course have exhumed mass graves full of their own fellows in order to give the latter a decent burial, NOT alleged mass graves full of Jews they didn’t care about and even hated. And one is amazed by the speed of those ‘Polish’ commissions. The Germans needed 2 full months (April & May 1943) to exhume mass graves having contained ‘only’ around 4,000 bodies at Katyn, while the ‘Polish’ commissions were seemingly able to dig out and investigate mass graves having contained hundreds of thousands of bodies with an amazing speed.
The Bolshevik narrative about the Reinhardt camps is pure sci-fi. The Soviet allegation that the Nazis tried to hide their crimes among other things by planting trees (or lupine, or any other plants) over their alleged mass graves is a mere projection of their own misdeeds. The Germans quite easily found the Soviet mass graves at Katyn because the Bolshevik geniuses had planted young pine-trees over their mass graves for concealment purposes.”
Translation of the above:
I don’t know where the Jews went so I’m throwing out a lot of jibber-jabber to disguise this fact.
The Poles examined and exhumed many mass graves following the war. Reading those reports I think the Poles stopped investigating those sites because they found churned soil, ash, bone fragments and bones. The Germans destroyed everything when they left so there were no structures or documents left.
So, anyway, whenever you are ready to provide actual evidence that these were transit camps and not death camps let me know.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 7:40 am
Hard to believe anyone can believe what the Poles or the Russians would have to say in this case again like all things pertaining to the HoloHoax they can just invent all sorts of numbers and facts and put it on a piece of paper and people will believe it but it really comes down to what can be seen there and not much can be so if people want to believe this nonsense so be it.
I read somewhere that the moon is made of cheese it must be so because it was written down by someone.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 2, 2016 @ 7:52 am
“Hard to believe anyone can believe what the Poles or the Russians would have to say in this case again like all things pertaining to the HoloHoax they can just invent all sorts of numbers and facts and put it on a piece of paper and people will believe it but it really comes down to what can be seen there and not much can be so if people want to believe this nonsense so be it.”
I find that it is really easy to label people liars or claim documents are forgeries when you don’t like what is said or written.
It is the easy way out, Jim. Is that the best you have?
Prove where the Jews went if the camps were transit camps. That solves everything on your end.
“I read somewhere that the moon is made of cheese it must be so because it was written down by someone.”
To bad the astronauts didn’t bring some cheese with them.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 7:57 am
I’ve never heard such a silly response in all my life, Jeff.
You say;- “… the bone fragments are coming to the surface because they are buried, the same with the skeletons in the 60’s. Over time through erosion and other natural processes these items are finding their way to the surface. It’s the same process that causes buried rocks to rise to the surface or causes cracks in the asphalt and sidewalks. Erosion, the expansion and contraction of the surrounding rock surfaces through the heating and cooling of the earth, natural shifts, etc. all cause this. It’s no mystery.”
This might come as a surprise to you, Jeff, but all human societies everywhere on earth ensure that dead bodies and human remains are buried in a proper manner, either at a suitable depth in the earth, or in a specially prepared vault or ossuary above ground. No one claiming to be civilised would even dream of allowing human remains to be left scattered around on the surface for years on end. And even if human remains were being brought to the surface by natural processes then the custodians of the site would very swiftly carry out remedial action.
Let me assure you Jeff, they would not wait for Ms Caroline Sturdy-Colls and her shifty bunch of dubious archaeologists and TV groupies to arrive after nearly 70 years to carry out one of the most ridiculous archaeological digs in modern times.
You say:- “We are now talking about bone fragments that are the size of coins. There haven’t been fresh bodies there since the end of the war.”
Well, you yourself might be talking about that – but Caroline certainly wasn’t! She spoke about “bodies” being discovered – not “coin-sized” pieces of human remains. And she says there are photos of these bodies dating from the 1960’s. Well, that’s interesting: I would like to view these images – and I’ve no doubt you would too, Jeff.
You say;- “The sites were long neglected, primarily because the Polish Communists and their Soviet handlers long downplayed the Holocaust. These killing sites were behind the Iron Curtain so largely inaccessible to foreign Jews. There were monuments but it is only since the 90’s that anyone made a concerted effort to care for the sites and turn them into memorials, much less study them first hand.”
It doesn’t make a dime of difference whether the communists downplayed the holocaust or not; these are human remains, and if Treblinka was indeed this huge cemetery containing the remains of over 850,000 human souls, then they would have ensured that the site was properly looked after and maintained. National politics and ideology are not an issue here. Sites of alleged genocide are very important indeed!
You say;- “For what, examining the site? Saying what is there on the ground for all to see?”
No – Sturdy-Colls and her team should give a public explanation as to why they agreed to take part in such a transparently dishonest TV Show on behalf the official holocaust establishment.
You say;- “Another issue is that Jewish burial laws are very strict and permit no removal or disturbance of the mass graves. The archaeological investigations of Belzec caused a huge issue with the Chief Rabbi in Warsaw, primarily because the investigators used probes to discover where the bodies were. The Rabbi thought it was inappropriate for the archaeologists to stick probes through the mass graves.”
Yes, but they still went ahead at Belzec – fiddling and farting around, trying to find non-existent mass graves in order to convince the world that it was a death camp. And one has to ask;- What did the Chief Rabbi say about the decision to smother the entire Belzec site with concrete rubble and boulders?. I note also, that Caroline and her team dug around in Christian grave up at Treblinka 1; but I suspect they did not seek, or receive, the gracious permission from the Archbishop of Warsaw to do so.
You say;- “Personally I wish that the Rabbi would permit extensive digging but I don’t see that happening anytime soon”.
Why ever not? What does anyone need the permission of a Rabbi, or indeed any other religious authority, to carry out investigations to prove once and for all that Treblinka was a site of mass murder or not!
Comment by Talbot — May 2, 2016 @ 12:47 pm
“This might come as a surprise to you, Jeff, but all human societies everywhere on earth ensure that dead bodies and human remains are buried in a proper manner, either at a suitable depth in the earth, or in a specially prepared vault or ossuary above ground.”
No, it does not surprise me. However we are talking about ash and bone fragments that the SS filled the previous mass burial pits with. Someone obviously cleaned up the site but that did not include everything that was buried. As a consequence those fragments of bones, bones and skeletons slowly found their way back to the surface.
“No one claiming to be civilised would even dream of allowing human remains to be left scattered around on the surface for years on end.”
The sites are and were small, Talbot. As they found them I’m sure the remains were buried or otherwise disposed of. The sites were neglected for years.
“And even if human remains were being brought to the surface by natural processes then the custodians of the site would very swiftly carry out remedial action.”
Who says they didn’t? I’m sure, as I just said, that someone took care of any remains that were found over the years.
“Let me assure you Jeff, they would not wait for Ms Caroline Sturdy-Colls and her shifty bunch of dubious archaeologists and TV groupies to arrive after nearly 70 years to carry out one of the most ridiculous archaeological digs in modern times.”
I feel like I am repeating myself…….
Sometimes I think your sensibilities get in the way of you thinking rationally. You seem to think that everything is always wrapped up in a neat little bow, that the world works in a tidy, orderly way. That is not always the case. Eastern Europe was a mess at the end of the war, compounded by the fact that some countries, like Poland, were occupied THREE DIFFERENT TIMES over a six year period by foreign armies.
Poland struggled mightily after the war trying to rebuild its shattered towns and cities. The massive mess created by the Communist elites and their Soviet handlers only made it worse. What do you think was most important to them, Talbot? Taking care of and feeding the living………or taking care of the dead? If there were no bodies to clean up, only ash and bone fragments, then what is urgency?
You say:- “We are now talking about bone fragments that are the size of coins. There haven’t been fresh bodies there since the end of the war.”
“Well, you yourself might be talking about that – but Caroline certainly wasn’t! She spoke about “bodies” being discovered – not “coin-sized” pieces of human remains. And she says there are photos of these bodies dating from the 1960’s. Well, that’s interesting: I would like to view these images – and I’ve no doubt you would too, Jeff.”
I’ve actually found them, Talbot. When I get a chance I’ll see if I can find them again.
You say;- “The sites were long neglected, primarily because the Polish Communists and their Soviet handlers long downplayed the Holocaust. These killing sites were behind the Iron Curtain so largely inaccessible to foreign Jews. There were monuments but it is only since the 90’s that anyone made a concerted effort to care for the sites and turn them into memorials, much less study them first hand.”
“It doesn’t make a dime of difference whether the communists downplayed the holocaust or not; these are human remains, and if Treblinka was indeed this huge cemetery containing the remains of over 850,000 human souls, then they would have ensured that the site was properly looked after and maintained. National politics and ideology are not an issue here. Sites of alleged genocide are very important indeed!”
They did do some commemoration. They downplayed the “Jewishness” of the victims (like at Auschwitz), lumping Poles, gypsies and Jews together. Only after the fall of the Iron Curtain were the sites really developed.
You say;- “For what, examining the site? Saying what is there on the ground for all to see?”
“No – Sturdy-Colls and her team should give a public explanation as to why they agreed to take part in such a transparently dishonest TV Show on behalf the official holocaust establishment.”
That doesn’t make any sense. She went there, examined the grounds, found the foundation of the gas chamber. What about that is dishonest?
You say;- “Another issue is that Jewish burial laws are very strict and permit no removal or disturbance of the mass graves. The archaeological investigations of Belzec caused a huge issue with the Chief Rabbi in Warsaw, primarily because the investigators used probes to discover where the bodies were. The Rabbi thought it was inappropriate for the archaeologists to stick probes through the mass graves.”
“Yes, but they still went ahead at Belzec – fiddling and farting around, trying to find non-existent mass graves in order to convince the world that it was a death camp.”
They found them, Talbot. The archeologists found 33 mass graves filled with ash, bone and actual bodies.
“And one has to ask;- What did the Chief Rabbi say about the decision to smother the entire Belzec site with concrete rubble and boulders?”
I think, if I’m not mistaken, he approved it to prevent any further desecration of the mass graves.
“I note also, that Caroline and her team dug around in Christian grave up at Treblinka 1; but I suspect they did not seek, or receive, the gracious permission from the Archbishop of Warsaw to do so.”
Maybe you should look into it and find out one way or another.
You say;- “Personally I wish that the Rabbi would permit extensive digging but I don’t see that happening anytime soon”.
“Why ever not? What does anyone need the permission of a Rabbi, or indeed any other religious authority, to carry out investigations to prove once and for all that Treblinka was a site of mass murder or not!”
There are politics to consider. Frankly I agree with you, it is really one mass crime scene.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 1:50 pm
Jeff wrote: “The Poles examined and exhumed many mass graves following the war.”
The Bolshevik Polish puppets proved the ‘Holocaust’ as successfully as their Russian fellows proved the German guilt for the Katyn massacre…
Even if the Soviet ‘report’ about Katyn (http://www.cwporter.com/k1.htm) was in fact more convincing than the laughable Polish ‘reports’ about the alleged German ‘death camps.’
Red BS remains red BS…
Comment by hermie — May 4, 2016 @ 6:57 am
Jeff the store down the street from me was having a liquidation sale I guess that must mean all the people coming into the store are going to be killed. There’s no doubt the term can be taken both ways I guess it all depends on the context of what’s going on but for you to make it sound like it I can only mean one thing is ridiculous.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 3:32 pm
“Jeff the store down the street from me was having a liquidation sale I guess that must mean all the people coming into the store are going to be killed. There’s no doubt the term can be taken both ways I guess it all depends on the context of what’s going on but for you to make it sound like it I can only mean one thing is ridiculous.”
Don’t be ridiculous, Jim.
“Liquidate” can refer to property or money but when used regarding people it means killing.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 4:47 pm
Yes, in the crazed world of the holohoaxers, a store going into liquidation would indeed mean the extermination of the entire staff and customers. The staff would be told they’re going to take a shower before been given their pay-off cheques, while the customers in their eagerness to purchase sell-off stock at a knock-down price would be led round the back into the warehouse. Once there, they would all be pushed into the cold store and locked in. Then, the guy who runs the delivery van would run a hose from the exhaust pipe up on to the roof and feed it through a small hole in the ceiling.
They would all be dead within 15 minutes, and then the door would be opened, and a gang of illegal immigrants would come and drag all the bodies out and take them to a funeral pyre in the backyard. Just a few pieces of wood found lying around, plus a gallon-or-two of gasoline would then set the pyre alight. The female bodies – which of course contain much more fat than the males – would keep the flames burning at the necessary high temperatures for cremation.
After the bodies were all burnt, then the immigrants would be employed to crush all the remaining bones with baseball bats, and the ashes and powder would then be thrown into the air, to be carried far and wide on the wind in order for all the evidence to vanish forever.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 5:00 pm
I think Holocaust denial does something weird to people’s brains. It just can’t be healthy.
Only in the cuckoo land of Holocaust denial can people hem and haw over the word “liquidation.”
In financial terms it refers to getting rid of assets or property, for example Jim’s liquor store, i.e., a going out of business sale to get rid of stock to pay off creditors. It can also refer to selling off of something like stocks or real estate to get cash value. That is pretty simple and straightforward, it does not refer to people. It refers to financial transactions.
When it refers to people it is a reference to death. “Liquidating” people means killing them, that was the second part of the definition. Kube’s order plainly references killing them, he wasn’t selling them for cash.
But deniers will continue to squirm and squeak, twisting the meanings of words in a desperate attempt to squash square pegs in round holes to deny what happened. To this day I simply don’t understand why. A desperate need to rehabilitate Hitler? Blatant anti-Semitism? A deluded attempt to portray Hitler’s Germany as Camelot, a golden age when white people reigned supreme?
I don’t really get it. It’s like idolizing Stalin or Mao.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 5:36 pm
Jeff the book I am reading Now talks about liquidation and it does say that the term was used both ways so the fact that you think it’s only one way shows that you are not looking at it in a balanced way.
I would think context has a lot to do it woildnt you think.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:40 pm
Jeff.
Belzec – quote;- “Nine pits were opened up which confirmed the existence of mass graves, some still containing human remains, and the fact that thousands of corpses had been cremated and the bones crushed into small pieces. The human remains unearthed were re-interred in a specially built concrete crypt near the NE corner of the camp.”
I want to now the precise locations and sizes of these nine mass graves – plus the approximate quantity of human remains found within them. I also require to know what happen to the “specially built crypt near the NE corner of the camp” – because it is not there today. What was the quantity of human ashes interred there. Why have the Belzec authorities smothered the entire area of the camp in concrete rubble and boulders, Why aren’t the mass graves properly demarcated and planted with lawns, flowers and shrubs.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 5:16 pm
What I find interesting about information that comes from the poles the Soviets or whoever it’s not very trustworthy and they can say whatever they want they can put together any scenario they want they can put together all the dimensions and all these things that might make sense but then when it comes down to let’s see where these graves are today that’s where the problem is. It’s just like the killing of the people in the rooms please show me how you can kill thousands of people in a room with zyklon-b tablets being poured over their heads please show me how it works. And just like the diesel please show me how when you put all these people in the room that how this process can work like the way you say it does ……
bottom line these people can make up the story after the fact to make it look like this is the way it happened I don’t trust anything they say because they failed in showing how the deaths happened in the first place and if they fail there what would you think would be the case with where they buried everybody I wouldn’t trust them for that information eithe. Lie upon lies to back up more lies.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:22 pm
Here you go, Talbot:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/modern/archreview.html
That shows the archeological digs at the site.
As for the rest, whatever. What I see from you right now is an attempt to throw me off the fact that you have no answers to my questions. And you never will.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 7:28 pm
Jeff really now, you show me an article that talks about all these digs do you really think it’s logical that they don’t show any pictures of these open Graves and any pictures of what was in the graves you can say whatever you want yeah but there’s no pictures of it doesn’t make any sense to me you can’t prove it with what you showed me and the only picture they showed was the top of a ground nothing in or under the ground ridiculous.
Nice try…
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 7:39 pm
Still waiting on that whole “transit camp” proof, Jimbo.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 7:58 pm
Jeff they had a train coming from Horror Disneyland to take the people out of Treblinka and ship them West. It ran 24 hours a day…..LOL
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 8:00 pm
“Jeff they had a train coming from Horror Disneyland to take the people out of Treblinka and ship them West. It ran 24 hours a day…..LOL”
That’s funny, Jim.
Lots of ducking, no proof.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 8:05 pm
Treblinka – quote;- “The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the works carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts to stop the work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka.
The Examining Judge
Lukaszkiewicz. ”
No comment is require here – is there!
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 5:20 pm
That is what I’ve read too so I don’t know what to say of course they’re going to put together what they want to put together but the information I’ve come across says that they were no Mass Graves.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:24 pm
You missed a bit:
“In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum – enamel – glass and porcelain dishes – kitchen utensils – hand luggage – rucksacks – pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property.”
Lukaszkiewicz summarized the investigations carried out a month earlier at that location as follows:210
“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The ground of the camp was ploughed and sown. Ukrainians were settled there, who fled before the arrival of the Red Army (witnesses Kucharek and Lopuszyński).”
I’m glad to see you are learning denier 101:
“Only quote what is convenient, leave out the rest.”
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 7:22 pm
Nice comments there I sure would like to see some pictures you would think with all this information that they’re printing there woild be some backup material you know like pictures of these things happening I guess it wasn’t that important to show pictures the woods with just enough right.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 7:29 pm
Sobibor – the message says that “the website cannot be found.”
Just like all the human remains themselves – “they cannot be found!”
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 5:23 pm
The website must have been sold under a liquidation sale.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:32 pm
Click to access Sobib%C4%82%C5%82r-Bem-Mazurek-ANG..pdf
Try this.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 5:39 pm
Doesn’t work…..
Should be .PDF not ..PDF
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:43 pm
Sorry. I’m trying to find a copy that will work. I’m doing this on my phone.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 5:48 pm
I do all my replies by my phone sometimes it can be a pain but it is quicker than being on the computer.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:51 pm
Click to access SobibĂłr-Bem-Mazurek-ANG.pdf
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 5:50 pm
PDF file must be top secret it failed to open.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 5:54 pm
Can’t get it to download.
I’ll try it again.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 6:14 pm
But if Judge Lukaszkiewicz, acting on behalf of this Polish Commission into Nazi War Crimes found 2 hectares of ground covered by a mixture of human ashes and sand, plus countless human bones often still covered with decomposing tissue, and even human skulls, then one has to ask;- was all this material left lying on the surface after the forensic investigation of the site had taken place? If not, then who collected all these remains, and what happened to them afterwards. More to the point – where do these human remains lie buried today?
Without answers to these quite basic and legitimate questions, then I don’t see why anyone should accept this report by the Polish Commission. It looks to me as if the investigation was a half-baked propaganda exercise on behalf of the new Polish Communist-led regime. The Report’s conclusions are highly suspect – and I for one don’t believe a word of it.
Comment by Talbot — May 1, 2016 @ 7:59 pm
“Without answers to these quite basic and legitimate questions, then I don’t see why anyone should accept this report by the Polish Commission. It looks to me as if the investigation was a half-baked propaganda exercise on behalf of the new Polish Communist-led regime. The Report’s conclusions are highly suspect – and I for one don’t believe a word of it.”
Basic denier 101 part II:
If it doesn’t fit your world view, cry “Foul!” Then run away.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 8:03 pm
Talbot ….exactly! They can make up any story they want.and make it look good but again they don’t have the facts.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 8:04 pm
As far as I can tell you don’t have any facts either, Jim.
Why can’t you prove where the Jews went if they did not die? Should be easy, right? All those train schedules, the coordination between the SS and the military, the personnel attached to these transports.
I’ll wait, Jim. You have all those contacts, ask them. You can e-mail it to me, you have my address.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 8:30 pm
Back to square one…
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 8:32 pm
Oh, and Talbot?
Technically the Communist didn’t take power until 1947. The judge wrote that report in 1945.
http://www.internationalschoolhistory.net/central_eastern_europe/1945-1953.htm
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 8:13 pm
Ah – very interesting Jeff – they are alleged to have found 33 mass graves at Belzec. Well, well, well – 33! That’s a jolly good number – and a very significant one in Masonic and Occultic circles I believe.
Comment by Talbot — May 2, 2016 @ 2:07 pm
“Ah – very interesting Jeff – they are alleged to have found 33 mass graves at Belzec. Well, well, well – 33! That’s a jolly good number – and a very significant one in Masonic and Occultic circles I believe.”
I assume you are making some kind of point. What it is I have no idea.
Unless…….
Are you into numerology and all that other silly bullshit?
Well, if you are that definitely explains a lot.
I have to admit if that’s the case I feel…..somewhat disappointed, to tell the truth. You are an intelligent fellow, I guess I didn’t expect that from you.
Oh, well. Such is life…..
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 2:15 pm
I have a whole section about Belzec on my website at http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Belzec/index.html
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 4:13 pm
I was studying FG’s website regarding Belzec, and it was the photo images showing the vast field of rubble and boulders which caught my eye. What can anyone say to describe such a lunar-like landscape. It is grotesque, monstrous, an abomination – a gratuitous insult to the world at large.
Even if you were somebody like Jeff who believes that there were mass graves there which contained the remains of up to 600,000 souls, would you not feel that what the Polish authorities have done is an utter desecration to their final resting place. Surely the relatives and descendants of those who are convinced that their loved ones lie buried there would be horrified by what the Poles have done, and demand that all this crap be removed immediately and replaced by a proper, dignified cemetery which is surrounded by a secure perimeter wall or fence.
But those of us who don’t believe for a single moment that any mass graves lie in the former camp at Belzec, it is quite obvious why the Poles have dumped all these thousands of tonnes of rubble there. They want to prevent any future investigation of the site by a truly independent and open-minded commission of forensic archaeologists. What they want the world to accept is the shabby, “bargain-basement”, and highly dubious investigation carried out by the paid stooges from Torun University in Poland.
Comment by Talbot — May 2, 2016 @ 7:31 pm
They probably dumped the ruins of all the German cities that were bombed into that area including all the bones of all the Germans Holocosted then they said that everybody were Jews that were buried. there.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 2, 2016 @ 7:36 pm
you wrote: “Even if you were somebody like Jeff who believes that there were mass graves there which contained the remains of up to 600,000 souls, would you not feel that what the Polish authorities have done is an utter desecration to their final resting place.”
I believe that the entire camp of Belzec has been covered over with rocks, so that people can not dig there and find out that there are no bodies buried there. It was a transit camp.
Comment by furtherglory — May 2, 2016 @ 7:49 pm
Well, perhaps you can start a petition, Talbot.
In the meantime, you and all of the other…..”revisionists”……can get cracking on proving to the world that these were actually transit camps.
Here’s where you can start:
The Hoefle Telegram shows us that these camps plus Majdanek were destination points. No one disputes that.
Now, all you have to prove is there is a destination from these camps.
Shouldn’t be hard. After all, that’s a lot of Jews to go through these camps. They have to wind up somewhere. Also, because we know that the Germans were busy starting their military campaign in the Southern part of the USSR there has to be coordination between the military and the SS so there are no bottlenecks in the transport system. This includes train schedules, material allocation, personnel transfers, etc.
Also, we know they needed security details to guard against partisan attacks and to prevent the Jews from running off. After all, this was a war zone.
We also need food allocations.
So, anyway, I wish you good hunting.
Let me know how it goes.
Oh, you’ll have to find a counter order to Kube’s order calling a halt to any further transports….even though it was only 1,000 able-bodied Jews.
Good luck.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 2, 2016 @ 7:54 pm
Jeff, you said: “Naturally they neglected the parts of the document that spoke of killing and the express order to stop further deportations under the threat of execution. Also, you’ll notice that nowhere in this document is there any mention of the alleged “transit camps” Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec or Chelmno.”
Maybe they NEGLECTED the parts that spoke of killing … etc., because it didn’t exist but maybe was a figment of many imaginations and wishful thinking, hoping that (more) Jews were killed (at all or) than were and the more grisly the better… I think this letter is open to the interpretations provided by others here – Hermie, Talbot, Rizoli. Wow, it actually might be possible that jews were not designated for extermination but further transport during war time in an effort to, (pardon my frankness) GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF THE REICH.
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 6:01 pm
Talbot, I was awaiting the next installment of HILLARIOUS HOLOCOST HOAXES – Talbot Tales. This was great. I guess we ALL need to take heed when hear of the notorious AND SCARY LIQUIDATION SALE!
Additionally, I agree with Jim and HIGHLY endorse heavy skepticism of ANY so-called evidence against the National Socialists that may have been passed on from the Soviets or Poles. (I will submit a summary of soviet mis-documentation in the next posting).
Jeff, I think holohoax thinking (I use the term thinking loosely) affects the brain. I’ve come up with my own definition, if you will allow me:
HOLOCOSTOMANIA – Subscribing to the politically correct view of the holocost without question or discussion – rots the brain, corrupts the morals and creates a psychopath. The only cure is the truth provided by those who oppose and contend against the wholesale force feeding and consequent perversion of the myth of the holocost. (Diane King)
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 6:12 pm
SOVIET FAKES
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=8107
The Moscow ” Goebbels Diaries”
There are other episodes discussed here which encompass both documentary frauds and what Trevor-Roper termed “unchecked human testimony.” (H.R. Trevor-Roper, “The Last Days of Hitler”, New York, 1947, p. 197, notes)
The collapse of the Soviet Union may have seen the temporary end of Russian expansionism, but it did not see a termination to an incredible outpouring of documentary forgeries which have plagued the historical world since the beginning of the Twentieth Century.
Russian historical experts working for the NKVD and its successor, the KGB, conducted, and still are conducting, a prolific forgery factory in Moscow. These products have sown dissension and confusion in the ranks of legitimate historians and journalists. The former are more difficult to delude, but the latter, eager for sensational material with which to reap profits, are extraordinarily careless in assessing the accuracy of offerings from Muscovite document peddlers.
Aside from extensively rewriting their own history, Russian forgery experts spent most of their time in producing material designed to delude, confound and mislead their perceived enemies, both domestic and foreign. Much of this began after the Second World War with extensive rewriting, editing and deliberate forgeries of German military and political documents designed to embarrass the United States and its client, the West German government, as well as to elevate the image of their own regime.
Faked reports dealing with the purported death of Hitler began the deluge and these were followed by endless papers concerning the fate of Martin Bormann who the Soviets claimed was living somewhere in the West, probably protected by the insidious Americans. The same creative writers also heavily edited and enhanced the records of German Army Group Center, captured by their military units, when that entity was overrun during the war.
The purpose of this exercise was to supply proof that German General Adolf Heusinger, nominated for a high NATO position, had been involved in war crimes on the Eastern Front during the course of the war. The KGB intermingled original, relatively unimportant documents with doctored or completely invented papers, released these through their agencies in the West and awaited the results. Fortunately, other period copies of the original documents were safe in German and American archives and comparisons quickly disclosed the fraudulent nature of the Heusinger attack. (See Security and reduced tension: On the occasion of the 70. birthday of general (ret.) Adolf Heusinger. 4 August 1967. Markus-Verlagsgesellschaft, Cologne 1967.)
Many documents were prepared over the years in the event that they might be needed for a future propaganda assault and then left secure in Soviet archives.
In addition to these activities, the KGB experts also concocting material proving that many American prisoners of war remained in Vietnam after the American withdrawal, and Mr. Morris, an American historian, was taken in by these as period articles in the New York Times show. Also produced was a series of badly forged papers proving that US citizen, John Demjanjuk, was a notorious German concentration camp guard, which was exposed in U.S. Federal Court proceedings in Virginia. Both of these projects were eventually exposed as frauds, but the problems they engendered during their brief life span were monumental.
One of the most ambitious Soviet productions concerned the writings of Dr. Josef Goebbels, Hitler’s brilliant Minister of Propaganda, who killed himself and his family in the Berlin Führerbunker in 1945. Dr. Goebbels was a devoted diarist, setting forth his experiences and thoughts on a daily basis beginning in the 1920s and running through to the final days in Berlin.
After he became Minister of Propaganda, these records were dictated by Goebbels on the following day and typed by a secretary on special paper using a large-type continental typewriter. An original and two carbons were made and the completed documents carefully stored. It should be noted that with the increasing pressures of his offices, Goebbels no longer had the time to write out his diary by hand, but always dictated it to a secretary on the day following the events he wished to record.
After the war, in 1946, a book appeared in East Berlin entitled Extracts and Confessions of a War Criminal and purported to be quotes from the Goebbels’ diaries. It was later discovered that the book, which was entirely fictitious, was written by one Max Fechner, a well-known German communist, once the deputy head of the Socialist Unity Party, and a colleague of the German communist leader, Walter Ulbricht, who had spent the war in Moscow amongst his friends.
In 1967, Soviet historian Jelena Rshewskaja published a book in East Berlin entitled Hitlers Ende ohne Mythos (Hitler’s end without Myth) in which she discusses having inspected “thick folders of handwritten Goebbels material” found in the bunker. In the same year, the pump was further primed by a similar report from Juliusz Stroynowski, a historian from Communist Poland who had fled to the West. He disclosed that he had accidentally discovered “several stacked folders” of handwritten Goebbels’ diaries “in the archives of the Soviet Ministry of Defense.” Stroynowski claimed that he had been permitted to examine the material, but was not allowed to make copies of any of it.
The stage was now set in the press and interest aroused. The actual purported diaries were disclosed once again, this time to British journalist John Costello, who again was only permitted to look and not to copy, according to a letter from Costello to Robert Crowley in 1991. A copied document is, in the hands of any journalist or academic, a published document. And a published document which has passed from the control of its owner, and in the case of the Goebbels material, its creator, cannot be sold for profit.
Because handwritten documents on the original, special paper Goebbels used would have been nearly impossible to successfully fake, the new Soviet line was that the documents had actually been typed and then put onto glass negatives. These were hidden by the Germans in cases where the Soviets were able to “discover” them after the war. Having altered the Goebbels’ diaries from “several stacked folders” of handwritten material to a box of more easily forged photographs of typed manuscript, the Russians began to offer their rare, politically-incorrect material to sources in Germany for sale and publication. German experts universally rejected these productions as completely fake.
The documents originating in Moscow, especially the glass-negative photographic copies, are entirely spurious and were initially designed with political propaganda in mind, though later sold for a considerable sum of money to a British tabloid journalist intent on publishing them as his own political propaganda, and, of course, the unavoidable David Irving tried to make profit from this as well.
Like the fictitious Walter Schellenberg “memoirs” published under the title The Labyrinth, the dissemination of the equally fake Soviet produced Goebbels’ Papers does a tremendous disservice to legitimate historians and researchers into whose works some of this contaminated material will eventually seep.
The temptation to embroider historical facts to fit a particular ideological point of view is difficult for some journalists to successfully resist. Some might well accept a faked Goebbels file, if, for example, it were prove that Hitler did not order a holocaustic killing of European Jews, while others might well use the medium of a questionable interview to prove the contrary.
Based to a very large degree on completely fictitious documentation prepared by the former Soviet KGB as political disinformation, Irving’s biography of Dr. Goebbels is full of pointless anecdotes, s******ing sexual innuendo and leaves an objective reader with the distinct feeling that the book should have been written in the sort of soft crayon supplied to therapy patients in locked wards.
Fakes & Frauds II: David Irving. The Pathologist’s Report: An autopsy on the remains of David Irving
__________________
« Meanwhile, the war against the Soviet Union has allowed us to dispose of new territories for the final solution. Consequently, the Führer has decided to displace the Jews not towards Madagascar but towards the East. Thus, there is no longer any need to consider Madagascar for the final solution. »
– Franz Rademacher, Feb. 10th 1942, Nuremberg Doc. NG-3933
« Revisionists are just the messengers, the stupid impossibility of the ‘Holocaust’ story line is the message. »
– Hannover (CODOH)
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 6:15 pm
DK….one of the mentionables in the LOER
League of Extraordinary Revisionist.
JR
Comment by jrizoli — May 1, 2016 @ 6:26 pm
“Jeff, I think holohoax thinking (I use the term thinking loosely) affects the brain. I’ve come up with my own definition, if you will allow me:”
Oh goody. Can’t wait.
“HOLOCOSTOMANIA – Subscribing to the politically correct view of the holocost without question or discussion – rots the brain, corrupts the morals and creates a psychopath. The only cure is the truth provided by those who oppose and contend against the wholesale force feeding and consequent perversion of the myth of the holocost. (Diane King)”
Now, Diane, I think it’s a little unfair to call me a psychopath. I admit my morals were a little loose when I was younger but I get around that by blaming alcohol and pot. Nowadays I’m as clean as a whistle so don’t be concerned on that front.
Anyway Diane I’m signing off. I’ve got other things to do tonight and I’m really trying to cut back on how often I comment on this blog. Have a nice evening. Sleep tight and don’t let the Jews bite.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 1, 2016 @ 6:26 pm
Why, Jeff, I didn’t call YOU a psychopath – YOU made that leap yourself. Sounded like the recipe for a psychopath under the influence of HOLOCOSTOMANIA struck close to home.
Comment by Diane King — May 3, 2016 @ 11:33 am
If the Germans had wished for and planned extermination, they wouldn’t have carted ‘millions’ to Poland to gas them in ANY fashion. They had no one to impress or answer to. The National Socialists were a dictatorship-based government. They could and would do what they wanted regardless of alleged world opinion.They’d have killed the jews, ad nauseum WHERE THEY STOOD! Like the Soviets did. Also, I realize your comment, FG is tongue-in-cheek, but Zyklon B was NOT the most efficient method for gassing, unless you were lice. Fred was a little kid then. Doubt he’d been able to contribute much… again, ‘tongue-in-cheek’! (I got a kick out of these, but the best is yet to be, thanks to Talbot and Jim).
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 5:46 pm
In the realm of physics, IMPOSSIBLE – you know, matter occupying space …. Here’s an easy solution. Identify the claim, then check it out with the current technology of the time and see if because it’s impossible, now you will have to take THE RIDICULOUS ON FAITH. Frankly, in this case, since the Lord isn’t within a million miles of this subterfuge, I’ll take science over holohoax lunatic ‘faith’.
Comment by Diane King — May 3, 2016 @ 11:50 am
“In the realm of physics, IMPOSSIBLE – you know, matter occupying space …. Here’s an easy solution. Identify the claim, then check it out with the current technology of the time and see if because it’s impossible, now you will have to take THE RIDICULOUS ON FAITH. Frankly, in this case, since the Lord isn’t within a million miles of this subterfuge, I’ll take science over holohoax lunatic ‘faith’.”
Good, then you are no longer a Holocaust denier. You acknowledge that there was no room for all of those Jews in the camp, they didn’t leave the camp, therefore they died there. Good for you, Diane. We are making progress.
Comment by Jeff K. — May 3, 2016 @ 2:08 pm
Oops. It looks like there’s a Bug in the Holo-Matrix… 😉
Comment by hermie — April 30, 2016 @ 12:55 pm
er…a Boog, sorry…
Comment by hermie — April 30, 2016 @ 12:56 pm
I’m sure that’s what it is, Hermie, a BOOG! Sounds serious!
Comment by Diane King — May 1, 2016 @ 6:12 pm